[JAK]

Hi,

I have just joined TOE. My interest in an integrated theory of everything is born of my interest in the workings of the mind and emotion. I have a website available to peruse my progress: www.theoryofmind.org. I view any living organism as an energy system (Elizabeth Duffy). The primary needs for survival are to manage energy resources (Gregg Henriques) and to climb toward negative entropy (Erwin Schrodinger and Stuart Kauffman). I adhere to Global Workspace Theory (Bernard J. Baars) and Perceptual Control Theory (William T. Powers). The latter views the brain/mind as a control system with feedback loops.

I am also interested in exploring adaptations of my theoretical work with those working in AI and robotics.

I look forward to learning from all of you.

JAK

[richard808]

you think an organism is aware when it's going to run out of its carbon and energy source? i used to grow yeast in the lab and they just use the stuff up , at the maximum rate, until they damn near exhaust it, and then they shut down. seems kind of dumb. but it set me to thinking, and i'm still thinking about it, about energy in living cells. i never see any discussion in biology about the redox state of cells, microorganisms or fullsize ones like us. one time i measured it, by measuring the absolute fluorescence of NADH in a culture of growing yeast cells, and you wouldn't believe how reduced the cells are in a growing culture of yeast. other thing i couldn't believe was how profligate they are. when they are growing, with lots of carbon and energy source, they have only two thirds as efficient energy capture system (oxidative phosphorylation efficiency, or yield) as they could have. the idea is to throw a bunch of energy away, just waste it, so you can synthesize more of yourselves. 'course then they run out; but it's like, they didn't know they would run out, or didn't think they would ever run out of energy, so they don't give a shit. Full steam ahead, like.

[JAK]

Originally Posted by richard808 you think an organism is aware when it's going to run out of its carbon and energy source? i used to grow yeast in the lab and they just use the stuff up , at the maximum rate, until they damn near exhaust it, and then they shut down. seems kind of dumb. ...

This has been seen on a macro scale, too. Moose, introduced onto a small island, consumed all of their resources and weakened as a species. It wasn't until a predator was introduced (wolves) did the moose population stabilize and strengthen.

In general, natural selection puts pressure on creatures to prevent the runaway resource exhaustion you noted with the yeast. The pressure comes from finite resources (1st law of thermodynamics) which are dwindling (2nd law of thermodynamics). As a result, the tendency for creatures to gather and consume resources must be held in check by external influences. (There are always exceptions, but this is the rule.) However, higher-order creatures (those with brains) have developed a mechanism to moderate this - the hypothalamus. Even so, there appear to be more internal factors stimulating uncontrolled acquisition of resources than internal factors managing them.

A by-product of all of this is "territorialism" by higher-order creatures. With resources limited and dwindling, protecting what you can for yourself (and offspring) has survival benefits. But the management of the hypothalamus as well as territorialism is a bit much to ask of yeast, I'm afraid. Yeast probably only exhibit the most basic drive of life - acquire resources as much as you can for as long as you can - "make hay while the sun shines".

[richard808]

trouble is, you look at the growth curve for homo sapiens, it's a nice exponential not much different from the shape of the growth curve for yeast ---- so far. it's population vs time. worldwide, that is; not Italy, or Israel, or whatever, but no. of humans vs time since the beginning of time.

for the yeast, it's over in a day or so, under the right conditions.

for us, it's .... well, who knows? we'll see.

www.frogojt.com/yeast1.pdf
nice contolled growth curve for yeast, making hay while the sun shone.
i don't have a growth curve for the humans. I've seen it, from UN data and whatnot. Maybe it was in a biology book. The doubling time is now what, a hundred years, or fifty years? Must be levelling off; maybe not. Haven't looked for quite a while.

the growth curve for microorganisms usually gets pretty asymptotic, but that's because the bugs are running out of oxygen, i.e. shakeflasks. it's the kind of thing that becomes more and more limiting but not deadly.

[richard808]

well, i guess that was about the end of that interchange. nothing asymptotic here.