Howdy Folks,

[insomniac]

Yes ... good point. But not so much an error as the ability to change randomly (to error), and discard all those that don't work. The 'discards' or 'errors' are not purposely eliminated, but they can't compete.

That could be the way it works. Certainly natural selection is the final test, but it appears that females selecting for positive traits might be more effective at producing robust populations than random mutations. The females are making choices based on specific criteria.

Individual neurons have been caught predicting the future and making choices without telling the conscious mind what is going on. It seems that there is ample evidence to consider that decision making is a fundamental part of the life process, and not just the domain of the human brain.

In this sense, your statement 'In an efficient system, randomness just doesn't fit in. Everything is controlled by information, nothing is left to chance.' does not allow that nothing in nature is perfect, simply the best random selection at the current time. Look around!

Nature isn't perfect, but has an elaborate system of error correction routines, (the immune system), and a robust code that has maintained integrity for millions of years, while adapting successfully to an incredible range of environmental conditions, by accident? By failing to control mutation? Not very likely. Why would a system so frigging smart in some areas, depend on such a totally unreliable method as random mutation to accomplish anything? No system smart enough to last millions of years under such extreme conditions would make such a programming blunder.

Like is said, once you start to look at this as an information processing system first, everything changes. Is it an accurate model? Time will tell.

Cheers,
jim

[austintorn@aol.com]

I always liked the slow but steady and nearly sure immune system, for it checks everything that passes by for 'invaders', this taking a few days during which we wonder why we're not better yet. Then, I don't know how long, but the antibodies have to be made and put forth. On about the 7th day we still think that we will be sick forever, or what seemed like it, but then by the 10th day we are fine.

The digital DNA code is great, too, and the part that corrects copying errors.

[insomniac]

Looking over the topics i'm not sure where i should put this stuff about systems analysis. For example:

One of the first conflicts between system analysis and scientific method in general, is the concept that objects can exist separately from the system they serve. By definition, a system is made up of subsystems that coexist by the exchange of information and energy with the system at large

In general scientific inquiry, objects and events are routinely considered as isolated from their environment. They expect to find out the details of phenomena by excluded outside influence and concentrating on the internal relationships. Seems to make sense, but from a system point of view, there is no such thing as a closed system. That’s the magic of systems analysis; it takes into consideration what science leaves out.

Subsystem: A major component of a system. It is made up of two or more interacting and interdependent components. Subsystems of a system interact in order to attain their own purpose(s) and the purpose(s) of the system in which they are embedded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossar...stems_theory#S

So, here’s the rub. Present evolutionary theory contends that the system we live in does not show purpose, intent or the ability to attain goals. Do we live in a “system” or not?

Where is the best place for me to get a decent discussion on this one?

cheers,
jim

[AntonioLao]

system we live in does not show purpose, intent or the ability to attain goals

That system fits the age of hunters and gatherers. Human civilization has since emerged into different systems of government as seen around the world. Each of this governmental system definitely has it purpose, intent, and goals.

[labelwench]

Hello insomniac.

There do seem to be a number of selection factors at various levels involved in this process we call life.

Have you contemplated any further thoughts that you would like to share with us?

'Information' takes many aspects, it would seem.

Regards,

Labelwench

That could be the way it works. Certainly natural selection is the final test, but it appears that females selecting for positive traits might be more effective at producing robust populations than random mutations. The females are making choices based on specific criteria.

Individual neurons have been caught predicting the future and making choices without telling the conscious mind what is going on. It seems that there is ample evidence to consider that decision making is a fundamental part of the life process, and not just the domain of the human brain.



Nature isn't perfect, but has an elaborate system of error correction routines, (the immune system), and a robust code that has maintained integrity for millions of years, while adapting successfully to an incredible range of environmental conditions, by accident? By failing to control mutation? Not very likely. Why would a system so frigging smart in some areas, depend on such a totally unreliable method as random mutation to accomplish anything? No system smart enough to last millions of years under such extreme conditions would make such a programming blunder.

Like is said, once you start to look at this as an information processing system first, everything changes. Is it an accurate model? Time will tell.

Cheers,
jim

[insomniac]

Howdy lw,

Thanks for the birthday greeting. It reminded me that i hadn't been around here for quite awhile. I finally published the long version of that post back in July. LifeOS: exploring the system the executes DNA attempts to show that Information Processing is fundamental to the Universe. By recognizing matter as the information stored as memory by the process, we eliminate the boundaries between matter, energy and information... they are one and the same. Within this view the rules are the same up and down the spectrum, regardless of scale or implementation. Its available from Amazon, etc. or a free pdf download at, http://mamayerba.weebly.com/

I had some of best discussion here with you folks. Hope some of you will take the time to check it out.

cheers,
jim