The randomness of Evolution

[Lloyd Gillespie]

There exists no infinite Universal mind, that's for certain, but you oh so easily forget about the absolute facts of the Universality of finite minds__Universal values__where the subjectivity of the human punies, contribute tremendously to the bio-evolutionary processes of human culture. An old quote to Wittgenstein, a great scientist before becomming a philosopher was; "God does't want men to have heads of cabbages, he wants them to have heads of hearts." Until you're willing to give your cabbage a heart, you've only got a cabbage head...

Esthetics, ethics, logic, epistemology and axiology are sciences of mind__and C.S. Peirce was the world's greatest scientist of math, logic and mind, etc.,__ever... Few realize he was First, America's premier sceintist, for his entire life...

You can not escape the reality of sceince's total scope, and evolution includes feelings and choices, i.e., Free-Will... Even if only created by the Bio-Bugs within...

All metaphors are tautologies, but metaphors and tautologies, with values ‘only’, have meaning…
No Truth Without Real Values, Has True and Ultimate Meaning…
Science Is A Pure Tautology, Without Human Values…

Value Validity__What Good Are Science and Determinism, Unless They Serve Human Values…???

[Graybeard]

There exists no infinite Universal mind, that's for certain, but you oh so easily forget about the absolute facts of the Universality of finite minds__Universal values__where the subjectivity of the human punies, contribute tremendously to the bio-evolutionary processes of human culture.

No ...... I acknowledge all contributions, even tremendous ones ........ Culture can be a beneficial selection ? But that is all it is .... another bio-evolutionary step.

An old quote to Wittgenstein, a great scientist before becomming a philosopher was; "God does't want men to have heads of cabbages, he wants them to have heads of hearts." Until you're willing to give your cabbage a heart, you've only got a cabbage head...

'When you have them by the balls, they're heads and hearts will follow' ..... LBJ, a great scientist before becoming a President. The Law of the jungle prevails, no matter what yardstick you use.

Evolution, having no purpose or design, does not care about intelligence or lack of, if thats what you are implying by heads and hearts of cabbages. If Ants survive, or even cabbages, over Man ..... then what is the difference, only the survivors are important ... and evolution will continue on its diurnal course without a care, without even the knowledge that we tried and failed.

Esthetics, ethics, logic, epistemology and axiology are sciences of mind__and C.S. Peirce was the world's greatest scientist of math, logic and mind, etc.,__ever... Few realize he was First, America's premier sceintist, for his entire life...

No ... they're philosophies, sub-putative ones at that. In fact, in the order you have listed, not all of them are even 'Philosophies of Science'. And philosophies of Science are still just philosophies.

“Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds,” Feynman

You can not escape the reality of sceince's total scope, and evolution includes feelings and choices, i.e., Free-Will... Even if only created by the Bio-Bugs within...

Yes ... Evolution does include feelings and choices but the future does not always pan out according to the choice ? And feelings, all feelings, exist between two extremes, the lower of which is fear .... The Law of the Jungle drives our reactions. Even our pro-actions (choices) are in anticipation of reactions from the ecology, environment. We are as much a part of it as it is of us. And we have the smaller part. As you say, no one can escape the reality of Science's total scope.

All metaphors are tautologies, but metaphors and tautologies, with values ‘only’, have meaning…
No Truth Without Real Values, Has True and Ultimate Meaning…
Science Is A Pure Tautology, Without Human Values…

Value Validity__What Good Are Science and Determinism, Unless They Serve Human Values…???

Don't know what this is referring to ....... my brain is too small.

"By Allah, O brother, thy faith is none other than exceeding faith and thy story right strange; were it graven with gravers on the eye corners, it were a warner to whoso would be warned... and of no avail, O my master, is a twice-told tale!"

Tale of the Trader and the Jinni

See ya in Siam .....

cool bananas ... greg

[Lloyd Gillespie]

You offer nothing but tautologies Greg__Where's you science...? The reason science absolutely requires philosophy is meaning, since science without meaning is no science at all... Meaning's got science trapped in the reality of values__as long as you live__ain't no escape... No values__no science...

It's taken science 500 years to realize values are necessary to meaning validity, and I see many haven't learned this necessary lesson__yet...

Logic absolutely requires the validity of values, to even begin to interpret its own meanings, whether mathematical values or the values of its logical meanings...

Values is values__The philosophical__No thing is interpreted without them__Not even the absolutes...

[Graybeard]

You offer nothing but tautologies Greg

Do you use the word in its rhetorical sense ... or in its logic sense

Where's you science...? The reason science absolutely requires philosophy is meaning, since science without meaning is no science at all...

No doubt that meaning is required to make sense .... but with or without .... this does not affect the evolutionary process, except in the cases where it supplies a beneficial selection. ?

Meaning's got science trapped in the reality of values__as long as you live__ain't no escape... No values__no science...

It's taken science 500 years to realize values are necessary to meaning validity, and I see many haven't learned this necessary lesson__yet...

Logic absolutely requires the validity of values, to even begin to interpret its own meanings, whether mathematical values or the values of its logical meanings...

I read the words, make the sounds, but I just don't get the sense of what your saying ......

For the breezes blowin' o'er the sea from Ireland
Are perfumed by the heather as they blow
And the women in the uplands diggin' praties
Speak a language that the strangers do not know.


Listen, if all mankind disappeared from the face of the Earth in the next instant ..... no truth would be invalidated, no false value would be verified ..... I am torkin about the 'process' of evolution .... not how important or unimportant the small part we play ? Our understanding is not fundamental, or even required for the process to operate and our 'understanding' is only instrumental where it becomes a beneficial selection .... even if that understanding is wrong it can still be a beneficial selection (or not).

Values is values__The philosophical__No thing is interpreted without them__Not even the absolutes...

I wuz never big on absolutes ..... I leaves dem tings to you ...... lol

cool bananas ... greg

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Science is measurement, first and foremost__How does one measure beneficial selection...? Beneficial is a value carrying word...

Beneficial or natural selection is not a science__It can't yet be scientifically measured__Far too much complexity involved...

No one yet knows exactly all the intracacies of how natural selection fully works, or if it's even true at all__Epigenetic scientists are still working it out...

I see no true science in any forms of natural selection, evolution yes, but ns not clear enough complete__yet...

And you are just being highly speculative...

Like I said, where's the science...?

Greg, I've never bought the arguments for ns, though I do support evolution of species in general...

Do you use the word in its rhetorical sense ... or in its logic sense?

Both...

[Graybeard]

Science is measurement, first and foremost

Yes .... agreed ... but philosophy has no such claim

How does one measure beneficial selection...?

Iz dis a trick question ... lol ...... ?? The only selections that survive .... that iz the only measurement necessary

Beneficial or natural selection is not a science__It can't yet be scientifically measured__Far too much complexity involved...

This is cant ...... Evolution is no longer just a theory, its also a fact !!

Evolution as theory and fact in the literature
.
This confusion between "fact" and "theory" in the study of evolution was explored in a well-known quote by Paleontologist Stephen J Gould:
.
Evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.
.
Similarly, Neil Campbell writes in his 1990 biology textbook,
Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution.

No one yet knows exactly all the intracacies of how natural selection fully works, or if it's even true at all__Epigenetic scientists are still working it out...I see no true science in any forms of natural selection, evolution yes, but ns not clear enough complete__yet...

And you are just being highly speculative...

Like I said, where's the science...?

Speculative ?? far out !!...... Lloyd .... please read less in quantity and more in quality. And of course everyone (quote Lloyd) knows exactly all the intracacies of how (end quote) QM works and GR ??

Greg, I've never bought the arguments for ns, though I do support evolution of species in general.....

No offence buddy .... and of course your entitled to your opinion .... but sometimes .... just sometimes .... GGGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

You say you have never bought the argument for Natural Selection ........ your memory fails you ?? I will send you a PM.

still .... nuthin can make me unhappy ... tomorrow I iz in Thailand ....

cool bananas ... greg

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Yes .... agreed ... but philosophy has no such claim

Most of the world's most important scientists were also philosophers, so they could thoroughly understand their own necessary explanations...

Iz dis a trick question ... lol ...... ?? The only selections that survive .... that iz the only measurement necessary

That does not explain the depths of what you accept of the quantum mechanics of 'natural selection...' No one knows this yet, so it's not science, it's speculation...

This is cant ...... Evolution is no longer just a theory, its also a fact !!

I'm not arguing against evolution anything__I'm stating natural selection is the unproven aspect of evolution...

Speculative ?? far out !!...... Lloyd .... please read less in quantity and more in quality. And of course everyone (quote Lloyd) knows exactly all the intracacies of how (end quote) QM works and GR ??

If you don't you sure have no proof of either evolution or ns...

No offence buddy .... and of course your entitled to your opinion .... but sometimes .... just sometimes .... GGGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

You say you have never bought the argument for Natural Selection ........ your memory fails you ?? I will send you a PM.

That was no endorsement of ns, just evolution...

still .... nuthin can make me unhappy ... tomorrow I iz in Thailand ....

cool bananas ... greg

Without QM and RM no possible understanding of evolution or ns is complete and true__thus science remains most a tautology until unified...

[labelwench]

Science is measurement, first and foremost__How does one measure beneficial selection...? Beneficial is a value carrying word...

Beneficial or natural selection is not a science__It can't yet be scientifically measured__Far too much complexity involved...

No one yet knows exactly all the intracacies of how natural selection fully works, or if it's even true at all__Epigenetic scientists are still working it out...

I see no true science in any forms of natural selection, evolution yes, but ns not clear enough complete__yet...

Originally posted by Lloyd Gillespie

Change may be evident, and yet it is not easy to measure or predict.

One of my thoughts questions whether these changes are entirely reactive or whether a complex organism may actually be capable of evolving in a proactive manner in response to a modeling curve, as change takes time.

The means of communication between the environment and the organisms within it, in such case, is an interesting contemplation to me.

[labelwench]

ScienceDaily (Dec. 22, 2010) — A 30,000-year-old finger bone found in a cave in southern Siberia came from a young girl who was neither an early modern human nor a Neanderthal, but belonged to a previously unknown group of human relatives who may have lived throughout much of Asia during the late Pleistocene epoch. Although the fossil evidence consists of just a bone fragment and one tooth, DNA extracted from the bone has yielded a draft genome sequence, enabling scientists to reach some startling conclusions about this extinct branch of the human family tree, called "Denisovans" after the cave where the fossils were found.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...cience+News%29