The randomness of Evolution

[r.p.bibra]

dear ones;here lies the difference between applied spirituality&theoratical phi! it took brother michael a while to get the knack of this difference.inwest we create a theory out of theories,theoractical models ect.but in the so-called east,in spiritualism, only self-realised experiences are told/conveyed in 'words'. spirituality is a highly advanced practical science,but not a difficult one.any earnest seeker can realise the truth of 'Reality'once s/he follows its regimen. to get familiar with its finer nuances,ls. will try to send you via ps a brief about the multiple conditions of the mind.pl. don't entertain some wrong notions,he is an ignoramus,but an earnest one!he is a seeker,not a scholar.love&regards.ls.

[Infinite Consciousness]

dear ones;here lies the difference between applied spirituality&theoratical phi! it took brother michael a while to get the knack of this difference.inwest we create a theory out of theories,theoractical models ect.but in the so-called east,in spiritualism, only self-realised experiences are told/conveyed in 'words'. spirituality is a highly advanced practical science,but not a difficult one.any earnest seeker can realise the truth of 'Reality'once s/he follows its regimen. to get familiar with its finer nuances,ls. will try to send you via ps a brief about the multiple conditions of the mind.pl. don't entertain some wrong notions,he is an ignoramus,but an earnest one!he is a seeker,not a scholar.love&regards.ls.

r.p.bibra,
Would you please add some clarity to your post re "he is an ignoramus, but an earnest one! he is a seeker, not a scholar ?

If you are referring to me have the courtesy to say so - if not i would appreciate your saying so ?

[Graybeard]

r.p.bibra,
Would you please add some clarity to your post re "he is an ignoramus, but an earnest one! he is a seeker, not a scholar ?

If you are referring to me have the courtesy to say so - if not i would appreciate your saying so ?

Dear Infinite Conscious .... you may be over reacting. Bib sent me a word doc to help me understand his belief. its that I think he is referring to. Cultural differences can give strange meaning to words like ignoramus if you are looking it up in a foreign dictionary. Neither of us need to take offence.

greg

PS: i am thinking of my reply to all these explanations of consciousness and awareness. please be patient.

[Infinite Consciousness]

You asked Greg the question,define the difference between awareness and conscious in a manner that you will be able to percieve!A tall order my friend.

So what then is the real difference between awareness and consciousness?Choice? one
has to respond the other can say No!Consciouness is be-awareness is being?Be has
no choice,and must always obey,being has choice,and options,and an inner correspondence,within itself,a soul,which sees the unity in all diversity.

regards michael.

The secret of Truth lies in the little "great self" in Man, the self, the seemingly little thing of no consequence neglected and cast aside and almost lost in the mighty swirl of mind and matter, (i.e. human consciousness), and yet a great thing once it comes to its own (by reconnecting with its awareness as its content ) after breaking through the prison bars of life; the senses that keep one enmeshed all the time.

The inner man or the spirit-in-man is, therefore is to be freed from the tentacles of the outer man, consisting of matter and mind, (by returning his awareness from outside to inside) before the Self can rise in self-consciousness and become aware of the Cosmic Awareness. (He a cannot do this as long as his awareness is outside in the world.)

All this is a practical possibility by a process of self-analysis and withdrawal, and not a figment of the imagination as most of us might think. As "self-knowledge" precedes "God-knowledge," all the sages and seers have from time immemorial laid emphasis on "Man Know Thyself." And to know oneself, one must detach one's self (one's awareness) from the life of the senses.

This is exactly what Jesus meant when He taught, "He that findeth his life shall lose it" and "he that loseth his life shall find it." Thus one has to chose between the two lives: the life of the senses and flesh on the one hand and the life of the spirit and Awareness on the other, for one cannot have both at the same time; and unless one is able to rise above body consciousness, one cannot make his or her choice between the two.

It should be clear by what is said here that one cannot make the choice unless and until one rises above body-consciousness. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other."

Guru Nanak has said: "Without actual transcendence of the spirit The magic spell of the world dissolves not.

"Absolute Truth" is of course imageless, but when it came into being, Its primal manifestations were the Sound and the Light Principles, collectively called Nad in the Vedas, Udgit in the Upanishads, Sraosha in Zend Avesta, Word in Holy Gospels, Kalma in the Koran, Naam or Shabd in the Holy Granth----all signifying the two - fold aspect of the Divine Nature or the Creative Life Principle in Nature.

There is no T.O.E. without the knowledge of the Light & Sound Principles as the Creative Life Principle in Nature ! ! ! ! !

[r.p.bibra]

little-self refers to himself as ignoramus. pl. no body should ever entertain mis-conception about the intellectual ability of the ls. he is least qualified, i.e.why there are so many mistakes, errors and communication inabilities.he never refers himself in the first-person,so this misunderstanding.love&regards.ls.

[mkirkpatrick]

little-self refers to himself as ignoramus. pl. no body should ever entertain mis-conception about the intellectual ability of the ls. he is least qualified, i.e.why there are so many mistakes, errors and communication inabilities.he never refers himself in the first-person,so this misunderstanding.love&regards.ls.

Thank you so much Ls for clearing up this misunderstanding,it is difficult at times
when one is not using ones mother-tongue,to make errors in grammer.

look forward to your future contributions here on the league.


warm regards michael.

[Graybeard]

..{1}..Infinite Consciousness ......Graybeard, There will be no T.O.E. and no ability to understand a T.O.E. even if it is presented here - unless and until the question you posed, (re "can you define this 'difference' between 'aware' and 'conscious' in a manner that I (greg) and everyone else along with me will be able to perceive ?) is not only answered but far more importantly answered correctly.

..{2}..MKirkpatrick....You asked Greg, the question, 'Define the difference between awareness and conscious in a manner that I (greg) will be able to percieve! A tall order my friend.
I am consciously aware of the difficulty ahead

Michael.. this is classical you

..{3}..Infinite Consciousness .....quoting " MARSHALL McLUHAN, Re: The Medium Is the Message......The electric light escapes attention as a communication medium just because it has no "content." And this makes it an invaluable instance of how people fail to study media at all. For it is not till the electric light is used to spell out some brand name that it is noticed as a medium.
" Then it is not the light but the "content" (or what is really another medium) that is noticed."
From "The Medium Is the Message" we get three main points;
(1) The "content" of any medium is always another medium;
(2) The "content" of any medium blinds us to the character of the medium;
(3) Consciousness like the light escapes attention as a medium because it has no "content" i.e. its content is lost in outer expression

The "content" of consciousness is awareness. Awareness as the "content" of consciousness in outer expression is just another medium.

..{4}..R. P. Bibra. ....Dear ones; Here lies the difference between applied spirituality & theoretical phi! It took brother Michael a while to get the knack of this difference. In (the) west we create a theory out of theories, theoretical models etc. But in the so-called east, in spiritualism, only self-realised experiences are told/conveyed in 'words'.

Spirituality is a highly advanced practical science, but not a difficult one. Any earnest seeker can realise the truth of 'Reality'once s/he follows its regimen.

Dear peoples .... The thread starter was designed to test whether 'Natural Selection' was a viable explanation for all that we see and experience around us. I think it is. Many alternatives to 'seeing' have been put forward in this thread. But no one has specifically addressed the issue of natural Selection.

My conclusion is that therefore it (also) is a viable explanation.

Let us say that there are 2 schools of thought in this forum. One school who takes Science as a Religion. The other who takes Religion as a Science.
No one need be offended by either description. Unfortunately Science cannot (as yet) explain the 'consciousness' in a way that is satisfactory to all. It puts forward some good proposals ie: mirror nuerons.

Natural Selection has the benefit of a great deal of backing evidence. So if I am following you all correctly, then Natural Selection can 'practically' explain the circumstance, but has no 'enlightment' of the self same circumstance.

Infinite Consciousness sums this up by saying the content of any medium is always another medium, and further, that the content 'blinds' us to the true 'enlightment' of that medium. Why cannot men of science have this same enlightment. I think they can. Either Einstein or Newton (forgive me if I am wrong) said he felt as tho he was a small infant amusing himself by picking up a pretty rock here and there when all round him lay the undiscovered shoreline. To me, this shows enlightment to the equal of the people mentioned in this thread.

There can be no reason why the enlightment you all speak of is not available to all ... even science. The mistake many from the 'religion is a science' school make is to underestimate the perception of scientists. Don Juan the fictional hero of Carlos Casteneda's novels said that there are as many roads to 'enlightment' as there are hearts of men.

So for me, Natural Selection is my road, to each there own. A road, after all, is only the means, not the end. There is only one true end. So as long as all roads arrive there, then we are all on the correct 'path' .

Well ... this of cause leads to an indiputable conclusion.....

Enlightment, or a true understanding of that which surrounds us, is available to all, and must have always been so. It must have been there before Newton, before Einstein, and, if we are being honest, Stone Age Homo-Sapiens must have followed a path that fulfilled his life the same as Science (at least my meagre understanding of it) fulfils mine.

What do you think of this conclusion??. How could stone age man have achieved enlightment in his surroundings the way I do using the laws of Natural Selection in mine???

Infinite Consciousness, is your consciousness really infinite, will it go back to the stone age and admit there were ways to enlightment even then. or do you claim that only the 'teachers' that you mention hold the secret ??

Rajinder .... your four conditions of mind, [FONT=&quot]'One who understands the truth that everything is within, alone can experience bliss'.. why could not stone age man experience this. He lived before your teachers ... and truth is eternal

Maybe you are underestimating Science. The only difference between yourselves and Stone Age man is the 'science' you hold of your everyday surroundings, that you took in with your mothers milk. Believe me, you are more allied to the science of today than you are to stone age man. If you have a prejudice against stone age man, it can only be that he lacked science as you see your life.

If you can be wrong in this direction, then you can be wrong in others as well. Scientists are not fools ... they may even be further along the road than you think ... waiting for all of us, perhaps.


I think the most worthwhile thing to come from this discussion was a remark by Infinite Consciousness

Graybeard, There will be no T.O.E. and no ability to understand a T.O.E. even if it is presented here - unless and until the question you posed, (re "can you define this 'difference' between 'aware' and 'conscious' in a manner that you and everyone else along with you will be able to perceive ?) is not only answered but far more importantly answered correctly

greg .....
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[mkirkpatrick]

Greg my friend,what a really great reply,well worth waiting for,I congratulate you mate,
however,have you noticed Greg,there is always a "however"?You did type this out in works time,so please inform your employer,who will make the necessary adjustments to
you next month wage packet!

Your path you say Greg is that of natural selection,great,then walk it,proud in spirit,and humble in heart,become a warrior and a champion of the truth.

Now the "Stone age man" you mention,you ask;"why could not stone age man experience
this? Well the fact of the matter Greg is that they DID!The the ancient teachings of the
science of universal law,and the understanding of atoms and energy,go back to at least
10.000 years,then they become "lost" in the mists of time,the point is Greg they were
totally complete and well worked out then,ten thousand years ago,so the very implication
there is that,they are far,far,older,and in fact are the remanants from the Alantis civilization!

The is ample evidence still abounding today Greg,that while we in the west are in the
twenty first century,there are tribes in remote jungles,still this day,in the STone-age,
coexisting side by side today?The same thing Happened Greg a million years ago
when you had stone age man,and the Atlantis civilzation living together on the same
plantet,but centuries apart in Science!


When we fully understand the cycles of expression,and see that we have been around
far, far longer,that we can realize at present,then we will be better able to comprehend
the natural selection cycle you seem to favour mate.

warm regards michael.

[Graybeard]

......... Now the "Stone age man" you mention,you ask;"why could not stone age man experience this? Well the fact of the matter Greg is that they DID!The the ancient teachings of the
science of universal law,and the understanding of atoms and energy,go back to at least 10.000 years,then they become "lost" in the mists of time,the point is Greg they were totally complete and well worked out then,ten thousand years ago,so the very implication there is that,they are far,far,older,and in fact are the remanants from the Alantis civilization!
warm regards michael.

Michael ..... you are irrepressible, like Monkey, in the Chinese legend

quote, Infinite Consciousness ....Its primal manifestations were the Sound and the Light Principles, collectively called Nad in the Vedas, Udgit in the Upanishads, Sraosha in Zend Avesta, Word in Holy Gospels, Kalma in the Koran, Naam or Shabd in the Holy Granth----all signifying the two - fold aspect of the Divine Nature or the Creative Life Principle in Nature.

Michael, Infinite Consciousness ....In Australia, far west New South Wales, there is a lake (dry for over 25,000 years) called Lake Mungo which has evidence of campfires (and artifacts) of human occupation going back 40,000 years (possibly 60,000+). I have been there many times myself. These people taught their descendants about 'The Dreamtime'. From this site, Science has discovered that at one time the Earth's Magnetic Poles were reversed. North was South !! South was North!!

Without Science, todays descendants of these early people would not have known about their ancestors. Apart from the teachings of the 'Dreamtime'. Well ... you might say ... the Dreamtime was enough for them to find a road to enlightment. Thats all they needed to know.!!

Well .... the Dreamtime is unusual in a number of ways. It is one of the oldest of mankinds different 'schools' of knowledge. This is because Australia was undisturbed by western culture until the last 200 years. The Dreamtime is unusual in another way, it makes no predictions, whatsoever, about the future.

I could claim, and it would be difficult to dis-prove, that all 'schools of thought' (including those mentioned above) were hybrids and descendants of this same school. These people in their migratory journey from Africa to Australia, hugged the coastline and passed thru all countries in between. This has been genetically proven by DNA testing of these routes.

This knowledge has come to us thru Science!! Science therefore gives us a greater insight to the past than all other methods. Science struggles to understand the future and makes only statistical predictions based on past evidence. The Dreamtime, makes no predictions. So beware of any theory that makes forecasts without statistical evidence.

What I am trying to do is get an acknowledgement that Science cannot be ignored and must hold a place in the TOE. Possibly the larger share.

Can you see it ???


cheers ..... greg

[mkirkpatrick]

Again Greg I congratulate you on an excellent reply,you are a real credit to this league,
you went on to say;that you thought all the schools of thought,were possibly hybrids
and descendants from the same school,I agree with you there,although I would put this
original school as being from Atlantis,you prehaps are undecided.


You further went on to say quote"What I am trying to do is get an aknowledgement that
science cannot be ignored and must hold a place in the TOE.possibly the larger share"
unquote,

I totally agree with you here Greg;but which science are we talking about?The one that
matters most to me is;the esoteric sciences of the east,the Bhagavad Gita,occult science,
Gnani Yoga,the yoga of science,mind,and wisdom.Or do you mean,that thing that operates today,and is called somewhat hesitantly science?


There is a link going back into the far distant past,much knowledge was lost in the great
library at Istanbul formally Constanoble,which was raised to the ground in about 324ad.

Ancient records speak of a golden age,whether this was in the time of Atlantis or not I
am not sure,but most likely was.What age are we in now? The electronic age,I guess.


regards michael.