[JAK]

It appears that there are three fundamental laws of the universe:

#1 Differences Exist. Because of this law, we have objects (dishwashers, refried beans, spirit, etc.). Generally, these are 3D patterns. In communication/grammar, this law is the basis of "nouns". We separate one pattern from another through the use of "not" - a dishwasher is not refried beans, and refried beans is not spirit. This law is also the basis of the law of non-contradiction: "P" cannot equal "not P" (which is controversial - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction).

#2 Differences Are Dynamic. Because of this law, we have processes (flying, spinning, multiplying, etc.). This law adds the 4th dimension - time. In communication/grammar, this law is the basis of "verbs".

#3 Differences Are Relative. All patterns are deduced through comparison. As a result, this might be the fundamental law from which #1 and #2 are created. Boundaries are frequently fuzzy, so "not" may be less than "crisp". In communication/grammar, this law is the basis of "adjectives and adverbs".

Because of the third law, complete absence of any factor might be impossible. Plus, it facilitates concepts such as "oneness of spirit" and the "illusion of separateness". Using a scale for "notness", oneness would be at one end, and seemingly hard boundaries would be at the other (on/off, black/white, etc.).

[sillysally]

Is there 3 laws of sameness? If so, what are they?

[JAK]

Originally Posted by sillysally Is there 3 laws of sameness? If so, what are they?

Hi, Sally. If there are 3 laws of sameness, I haven't figured 'em out.

[sillysally]

Ah yes, MJA will have the answer! I bet he won't say it's the holy trinity, hahaha!

[futrethink]

---JAK.

#1 Differences Exist.

---True.

"P" cannot equal "not P"

---From that ‘law’ paradoxes cannot exist and yet, we have massenergy, something that is matter, its seeming opposite/contradiction of energy, both at the same time and none of any subjective description. I’d throw in that it doesn’t even exist, but that is for later debate.
---A light bulb is dark and light at the same time. An individual is old and young at the same time. A Möbius strip is infinite and finite at the same time. Pi is finite and supposedly, infinite at the same time.
---Just because, you can only see the one side of ‘what is’, doesn’t eliminate the ‘what it’s not’ from existence, just from a perception.

#2 Differences Are Dynamic.

---True.

This law adds the 4th dimension - time.

---That is a chicken and egg belief.
---Without changes, you can’t know that time exists and without time, you can’t see the changes happening.

#3 Differences Are Relative.

---True.

All patterns are deduced through comparison.

---True. Comparisons with other patterns and concepts, that seem to have no pattern/are chaotic.

As a result, this might be the fundamental law from which #1 and #2 are created. Boundaries are frequently fuzzy, so "not" may be less than "crisp".

---Boundaries can be perceived as fuzzy, crisp or nonexistent, depending upon how you look at those boundaries. As stated above, just because, you can only see the one side of ‘what is’, doesn’t eliminate the ‘what it’s not’ from existence, just from a perception.

Because of the third law, complete absence of any factor might be impossible.

---Impossibilities are things that are ‘impossible’ to find in an infinite reality. Not intended as a joke, just, a really hard way to describe it.

Using a scale for "notness", oneness would be at one end, and seemingly hard boundaries would be at the other (on/off, black/white, etc.).

---On a line with finite limits, yes that would be a way to look at it.
---Try this equation as a way of looking at it: ...+x/-3x_+x/-2x_x/-x_0_-x/+x_-x/+2x_-x/+3x... . ‘0’ is the oneness/indeterminate/undecided state (it, just, IS). The sides count as the state of the boundaries of the opposites: x=dark and -x=light. x=hard and –x=soft, x=matter and –x=energy. x=action and –x=inaction.
---You were curious about my perceptions of things JAK, tell me this, is a two-dimensional line a line or a perception of a really skinny tube?
---In an infinite reality, there are no/nonexistent limits to anything; an individual can be frozen in time and active at the same time, energy can be destroyed and reality does/does not exist at the same time. And for all the Laws that you find, there are exceptions found to prove those Laws are wrong.

[JAK]

Originally Posted by futrethink ---True. ---From that ‘law’ paradoxes cannot exist and yet, we have massenergy, something that is matter, its seeming opposite/contradiction of energy, both at the same time and none of any subjective description. I’d throw in that it doesn’t even exist, but that is for later debate. ---A light bulb is dark and light at the same time. An individual is old and young at the same time. A Möbius strip is infinite and finite at the same time. Pi is finite and supposedly, infinite at the same time. ---Just because, you can only see the one side of ‘what is’, doesn’t eliminate the ‘what it’s not’ from existence, just from a perception.

This is why the 3rd law is so fascinating to me. "Old" and "young" are relative. A senior citizen may be older than an infant but is still younger than planet Earth. It gets back to your point about "perception". The context of our perceptions are critical to our identification.

And an object, relative to our use of it, seems critical to our identification of it. A sharp rock which could be used to scrape hides becomes "a scraper", while a slender and sharp one becomes a spear point. A board with 4 legs is a table. If you add a small drawer, it becomes a desk - especially if you leave envelopes, paper, and pens inside the drawer. If you put cards, perhaps it becomes a gaming table.

Again, perception seems critical to "labeling" any object.

Originally Posted by futrethink ---True. ---That is a chicken and egg belief. ---Without changes, you can’t know that time exists and without time, you can’t see the changes happening. ---True. ---True. Comparisons with other patterns and concepts, that seem to have no pattern/are chaotic. ---Boundaries can be perceived as fuzzy, crisp or nonexistent, depending upon how you look at those boundaries. As stated above, just because, you can only see the one side of ‘what is’, doesn’t eliminate the ‘what it’s not’ from existence, just from a perception. ---Impossibilities are things that are ‘impossible’ to find in an infinite reality. Not intended as a joke, just, a really hard way to describe it. ---On a line with finite limits, yes that would be a way to look at it. ---Try this equation as a way of looking at it: ...+x/-3x_+x/-2x_x/-x_0_-x/+x_-x/+2x_-x/+3x... . ‘0’ is the oneness/indeterminate/undecided state (it, just, IS). The sides count as the state of the boundaries of the opposites: x=dark and -x=light. x=hard and –x=soft, x=matter and –x=energy. x=action and –x=inaction. ---You were curious about my perceptions of things JAK, tell me this, is a two-dimensional line a line or a perception of a really skinny tube?

To me, perception requires all 4 dimensions. Thus, any two-dimensional object is perceived in 4-D. Yet, our flexible imaginations allow us to envision 2-dimensional space. In this regard, we perceive a 2-D line of zero depth.

Originally Posted by futrethink ---In an infinite reality, there are no/nonexistent limits to anything; an individual can be frozen in time and active at the same time, energy can be destroyed and reality does/does not exist at the same time. And for all the Laws that you find, there are exceptions found to prove those Laws are wrong.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, futrethink!

I'm open to having my mind changed, and I am especially interested in your last comment. Please provide an exception that you perceive.

[futrethink]

JAK.

To me, perception requires all 4 dimensions.

---Only 4? What about the other 7 Membranes/dimensions (DiMEMsions?), that have been hypothesized?

Yet, our flexible imaginations allow us to envision 2-dimensional space.

---Yeah. This is a stretch, I know, but following ‘the all things in all times and all places’ mentality of infinity; you have to conceive of an alternate dimension (DAmension), in which life exists in only two dimensions. Is that 2D line a line or our 3D perception of a really skinny tube?

Please provide an exception that you perceive.

---You’re going to have to be more specific as to which laws or thoughts you want me to bring exceptions to?
---I am assuming, that you are meaning the exceptions to my final comments and more specifically the destruction of massenergy? There is only on specific set of variables and perceptions, in which that possibility might be objectively found and that would have to be a nonexistent linear perception of a concept of time/temporal energy continuing past a/the point in which objective/subjective time ends/begins (circular time). If you think trying to read that is fun, try describing it without using entire paragraphs (Like you had to, to describe the multiple perceptions of what a board was/is/will be.).
---There is another possibility, as well; nonexistence (within circular time) is the result of two waves/DAmensions of contradicting energy coming into contact with each other and nullifying the other’s existence throughout the entirety of time. As white noise can be used to counter noise or antigravity can be used to counter gravity and thereby nullifying each other, so to can the same happen with energy on a greater level. And yes, I know that the energy merely becomes altered, but it also leaves a certain range of perception.
---Think of reality as a 3 ring binder; pages of differing elements of differing degrees, can be moved from one spot in the binder to another and placed near other pages. Say that you have a starting and small number of 3000 pages (That are numbered). Mix around those pages and sooner or later, you will have two differing/degreeing pages of a nullifying nature come into contact with each other. Continue mixing all those pages in all the possible combinations and you end up with blank/now nonexistent numbers within that 3000 count of numbers. Renumber the remaining numbered pages and use them. In a way, it is like the pages have never existed or are completely nonexistent.
---With the changing effect of time, certain DAmensions will come into contact with each other and nullify each other out of existence. Their loss will not be noticed by other DAmensions that have had no contact with them and will thereby never have noticed their removal from reality/the book. Those lost DAmensions will, in effect, be fully nonexistent, because the totality of their massenergy/time/space/thoughts will never have existed, do not exist and never will exist, because that type of energy contact will always become nonexistent.

[MJA]

Originally Posted by sillysally Ah yes, MJA will have the answer! I bet he won't say it's the holy trinity, hahaha!

You rang!
The truth of measure is equal.
JAK, you miss perceive the truth of a scale.
There is no absolute certainty in the measured difference of anything.
The only point of certain truth of any scale or measure is the balance point itself.
You see?

∧
=

MJA

[JAK]

Originally Posted by MJA You rang! The truth of measure is equal. JAK, you miss perceive the truth of a scale. There is no absolute certainty in the measured difference of anything. The only point of certain truth of any scale or measure is the balance point itself. You see? ∧ = MJA

So, I can use a rubber band to take measurements? I've done that before, and astonishingly, all things end up being equal. I'm becoming a believer MJA. I'm beginning to see the light of Truth - that everything is equal.

[JAK]

Originally Posted by futrethink ---Only 4? What about the other 7 Membranes/dimensions (DiMEMsions?), that have been hypothesized?

I've wondered about "time" being 3 dimensional just like space, which would get me up to 6 dimensions, but as you say, it's all hypothetical. Meanwhile, everyone seems agreeable to "time" as at least one dimension over and above the three attributed to space.

Originally Posted by futrethink ---Yeah. This is a stretch, I know, but following ‘the all things in all times and all places’ mentality of infinity; you have to conceive of an alternate dimension (DAmension), in which life exists in only two dimensions. Is that 2D line a line or our 3D perception of a really skinny tube?

Like the 7 Membranes/dimensions, life in 2D is conceptual. If it is truly alive, then it must be dynamic (by definition). That leaves only 1 dimension remaining - a dot or point.

I'm afraid I'm not able to get a sufficient grip on this concept in order to comment.

Originally Posted by futrethink ---You’re going to have to be more specific as to which laws or thoughts you want me to bring exceptions to?

You can continue with the 2D exception you made above, but I am finding it difficult to see that it can exist, let alone be an exception.

Originally Posted by futrethink ---I am assuming, that you are meaning the exceptions to my final comments and more specifically the destruction of massenergy? There is only on specific set of variables and perceptions, in which that possibility might be objectively found and that would have to be a nonexistent linear perception of a concept of time/temporal energy continuing past a/the point in which objective/subjective time ends/begins (circular time). If you think trying to read that is fun, try describing it without using entire paragraphs (Like you had to, to describe the multiple perceptions of what a board was/is/will be.).

You're right, if this is our next stop on our journey, then we will need to slow this down and spread (expand) it out in order for me to see your point better. For instance, I did catch "nonexistent linear perception" as having an inherent conflict. Any perception is a 4D process within the mind. You would need to give me an example of a "nonexistent linear perception" which actually exists! If it doesn't exist, it is not an exception. If it is a mental construct, then it is 4D.

Originally Posted by futrethink ---There is another possibility, as well; nonexistence (within circular time) is the result of two waves/DAmensions of contradicting energy coming into contact with each other and nullifying the other’s existence throughout the entirety of time. As white noise can be used to counter noise or antigravity can be used to counter gravity and thereby nullifying each other, so to can the same happen with energy on a greater level. And yes, I know that the energy merely becomes altered, but it also leaves a certain range of perception.

Again, we are discussing possibilities rather than evidence. I enjoy such discussions because they sweep out the cobwebs in my old brain. (I have 7 grandkids.) However, if there is no evidence, my laws are safe from exceptions (at least for now and until evidence to the contrary surfaces).

Originally Posted by futrethink ---Think of reality as a 3 ring binder; pages of differing elements of differing degrees, can be moved from one spot in the binder to another and placed near other pages. Say that you have a starting and small number of 3000 pages (That are numbered). Mix around those pages and sooner or later, you will have two differing/degreeing pages of a nullifying nature come into contact with each other. Continue mixing all those pages in all the possible combinations and you end up with blank/now nonexistent numbers within that 3000 count of numbers. Renumber the remaining numbered pages and use them. In a way, it is like the pages have never existed or are completely nonexistent.

Again, "nonexistent" is also a "nonexception". Perceptions and conceptions - even those of imaginary 1D or 2D patterns - are actually 4D critters which are alive and well in the brain and mind. Every exception you are divising is born as a 4D idea in your mind. Further, describing them requires the "language of the realm" requiring at least verbs (2nd law - at least 1 dimension) and the implication of nouns (1st law - from 1 to 3 dimensions). If you choose to use adjectives or adverbs, then I get a "hat-trick" - all 3 laws.

Originally Posted by futrethink ---With the changing effect of time, certain DAmensions will come into contact with each other and nullify each other out of existence. Their loss will not be noticed by other DAmensions that have had no contact with them and will thereby never have noticed their removal from reality/the book. Those lost DAmensions will, in effect, be fully nonexistent, because the totality of their massenergy/time/space/thoughts will never have existed, do not exist and never will exist, because that type of energy contact will always become nonexistent.

This might be your best exception to date.

The existence of any such DAmension with attributes which differ from ours could be an exception. However, if such DAmensions end up being nonexistent, then they end up being nonexceptions, too. It is only while they exist that they pose being an exception.

Also, your frequent reference to "nonexistent" is also the key to all my 3 laws - the existence of "not". Every reference to "nonexistent" is saying "not existent", and I'm thinking, 1st law. The key to my laws are not dimensions but the existence of "not" and zero. Every time you use "non", I'm hearing "1st law". And any exception will require the 1st law.

I'm more than happy to continue looking for exceptions, but the 3 laws are not necessarily constrained by dimensions. I use dimensional references just for convenience to the reader.

By definition, "exception" is the embodiment of the 1st law - the existence of "not".