East Meets West Logic...

[SB_UK]

Take the first part of the 'Zeitgeist: Addendum' movie, which is correct about only principle being printed, and interest being fought for to eventual necessity of wars, and this is true__But now, mathematically design it's feasible replacement__and you get the whole picture...

So

- have only one one~world bank with one currency
- neither pay nor charge interest
- eliminate the fractional reserve (if money is required - just increase the number which the one~world bank has sanctioned for release).

- though this'd mean that everybody could take as much as they want and so that system wouldn't work.

[SB_UK]

Then if you see no need for money in the very near future, Please explain how the global food and water supplies, plus all other survival necessities, will be successfully distributed__Because we ain'ta' gonna' educate the non-wanna-be-educateds' to the spiritual realities of goodness__It ain'ta' happening, no matter how much desire you may have for such a reality__Na Da, most do not want to be educated. In fact, many detest education, and the educated__I know, as I choose to live in these communities, to keep myself more grounded to the majority's realities__That's just true experience. And further, the educated, and wanna-be-educated, are still a real severe minority...rrr

I don't know whether there's any other route to happiness -
meaning that nobody particularly has a choice.

Most people (that I know) will describe a problem with education -
- though if pressed they'll admit to having a problem with bad education.

ToE permits people to be educated in a manner which they will enjoy.

It won't particularly even much feel like education.

This form of education though (closer to catechism meets quantum physics) won't lead (is not meant to lead) to a 6 figure dollar wage in an air-conditioned hot desking environment.

Nothing more than straightening out the mass of tangled wires which human beings entangle in our rush to make sense of this big bad world.

Maybe calling it education is misleading - because of the term's usage currently -
- as being closer to a form of abuse which only those unthinking few can hope to rote learn their way through to completion.

Anyway ... ... ... I don't think we have much of a choice -
untangle those minds and see what remains
- what'll remain'll be nothing more than a buncha' these
/ | \

simply all over the place.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Any aspect of social behaviour which is made mandatory and which forces people to counter their own spirit cannot succeed.

Right here SB, we have major dis-agreement. Our difinitions of 'freedom' and 'liberty' are I fear quite different. Imo, we live in social structures of 'civil liberty', which is a forced reduction of 'true freedom', by coersive laws__which are imo, absolutely necessary, due to population increases, and the varied desires of diverse peoples. Imo, there's never going to be any way possible to avoid the need for civil liberty laws, which always must be a true reduction of the spirit's freedoms and desires. This, to me, is just a fact of judicial life, as bad as I also hate this part of law's necessity, I've never seen a way to avoid it__as I see spiritual evolution of everyone, as totally unrealistically possible, or impossible as is my meaning__Thus the eternal need for coersive laws of a best ordered liberty possible__Though it can be structrued much better than what exists...

Simply

1. Man understands that he wants to be free[Always within sensible limits of civil liberty...]
2. Man understands that the need to earn money*** imprisons him.
3. Man works out a mechanism in which he (and all others) can be free -
since freedom is a group attribute.[Only when structured as civil liberty's best ordered possibilia...]

*** Better the current unequal financial system where survival is not possible without money.[...???]

[SB_UK]

what do people work for (when survival is not an issue)?
A sense of achievement

Currently we have physical needs and mental needs where our physical needs are (just as you've just mentioned) generally considered the dull though necessary fodder of the economist.

Can't all people be given a certain quota of food tickets on the one hand - which we earn through working in a co-operative (for the dull stuff of local water, wheat and wood harvesting)?

It'd mean that we all have to contribute in at least this one community friendly way in order to buy a (relatively simple) survival -
and with the pace of technological change -
- the rest of the time 'd be ours to do as we see fit.

I'm guessing that most people 'd only need to do an hour or so of messing about in a field per week (if that).

~*~

Please explain how the global food and water supplies, plus all other survival necessities, will be successfully distributed

So

- Stage I -

Ensure all local communities are self-sufficient in water, wheat, wood and maybe a dairy cow or two

- and we've taken care of all of your concerns.

That really can't be too much to ask

~*~

The rest of your time is yours to do whatever you feel.

Life is short.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

I don't know whether there's any other route to happiness -
meaning that nobody particularly has a choice.

Most people (that I know) will describe a problem with education -
- though if pressed they'll admit to having a problem with bad education.

ToE permits people to be educated in a manner which they will enjoy.

It won't particularly even much feel like education.

This form of education though (closer to catechism meets quantum physics) won't lead (is not meant to lead) to a 6 figure dollar wage in an air-conditioned hot desking environment.

Nothing more than straightening out the mass of tangled wires which human beings entangle in our rush to make sense of this big bad world.

Maybe calling it education is misleading - because of the term's usage currently -
- as being closer to a form of abuse which only those unthinking few can hope to rote learn their way through to completion.

Anyway ... ... ... I don't think we have much of a choice -
untangle those minds and see what remains
- what'll remain'll be nothing more than a buncha' these
/ | \

simply all over the place.

Untangle the entanglement personally__Just between two minds__And you un-tangle the entire world's over-entanglements of personal ignorances. This has been a theory of mine, for years__I hope it's true, as it's often been true in the past__Just look at the periods when information was passed from just one person to another, and became the new knowledge and wisdom of those eras... Can you just imagine the power which would be created__If just you and I came to complete agreement, without any coersion, and others just here at ToeQuest saw it__What power it would generate...?

Yet, no cheating toward agreement__keep the debate going until honest truth is scientifically discovered__For all to see...rrr???

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The Hippie/anarchist communal ideas are a bit over-simplified. We've already tried that__It doesn't last long. It don't' work. The French Revolutionists/anarchists also tried it, as have many others__It didn't work. The closest working communities are the Amish/Menonites, then it's a bit more than an hour's work a day__for everyone... I grew up on a completely self-sufficient farm, and there's much more work than many realize, to happily sustain the families__Year round...rrr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdiCJUysIT0

what do people work for (when survival is not an issue)?
A sense of achievment

Currently we have physical needs and mental needs where our physical needs are (just as you've just mentioned) generally considered the dull though necessary fodder of the economist.

Can't all people be given a certain quota of food tickets on the one hand - which we earn through working in a co-operative (for the dull stuff of local water, wheat and wood harvesting)?

It'd mean that we all have to contribute in at least this one community friendly way in order to buy a (relatively simple) survival -
and with the pace of technological change -
- the rest of the time 'd be yours.

I'm guessing that most people 'd only need to do an hour or so of messing about in a field per week (if that).

~*~



So

- Stage I -

Ensure all local communities are self-sufficient in water, wheat, wood and maybe a dairy cow or two

- and we've taken care of all of your concerns.

That really can't be too much to ask

~*~

The rest of your time is yours to do whatever you feel.

Life is short.

[SB_UK]

2. Man understands that the need to earn money*** imprisons him.
*** Better the current unequal financial system where survival is not possible without money.[...???]

oops sorry - thought that might have been unclear

Qualification of the term 'need to earn money' which isn't bad unless coupled with the 'need to earn money for survival within this current system which breeds inequality'.

An individual shouldn't have to work to survive.
If an individual earns enough money to buy an apple - then that amount of money shouldn't be worth half an apple on the following day.

Remove the association between money and survival (so that all people have enough to survive) and somehow generate a system (if we need an economic) where the system doesn't reward the rich with even more wealth -
and we're there.

Increased wealth (potential virulence) needs to control itself immediately, rapidly - kinda' like the endocrine system's negative feedback loop.



- with particular emphasis on immediate,rapidly (exactly as above)
- in context of a financial transaction this meaning as soon as any money exchanges hands.

If the negative feedback loop wasn't instantaneous we'd hyperthyroidy ourselves into the same sector of space that the politicians are scheduled to inhabit (pay-per-view 8-8.30pm nightly).

If one has more money than another person - one can fit 'double glazing' resulting in lower expenditure on heating leading to the individual having even more money available -
which they can spend on buying a second property for rental -
which'll itself appreciate whilst earning them a high rate of return - which'll make them even yet even even more wealthy.

Perhaps we need an overflow ship to welcome the scientists, artists and engineers who fall victim to the selfish tendency.

[SB_UK]

It didn't work.

... ... and money does ... ? ...



(my point being that we can't write off any system from past precedent - especially if we're going to concern ourself with a system which the average individual would consider to have failed much like any of the political or religious -isms which have had their fifteen minutes in the limelight).

~*~

The image I have of the future which keeps on returning -
is of one of the hobbit villages from LOTR over an ultra-fat wireless backbone.

Physical needs met.
Informational needs too.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie
It didn't work.


... ... and money does ... ? ...

I never said it did__I've stated the system must be changed/evolved...

(my point being that we can't write off any system from past precedent - especially if we're going to concern ourself with a system which the average individual would consider to have failed much like any of the political or religious -isms which have had their fifteen minutes in the limelight).

~*~

The image I have of the future which keeps on returning -
is of one of the hobbit villages from LOTR over an ultra-fat wireless backbone.

Physical needs met.
Informational needs too.

Nothing wrong, there...

2. Man understands that the need to earn money*** imprisons him.

*** Better the current unequal financial system where survival is not possible without money.[...???]

oops sorry - thought that might have been unclear

Qualification of the term 'need to earn money' which isn't bad unless coupled with the 'need to earn money for survival within this current system which breeds inequality'.

An individual shouldn't have to work to survive.

Now, that's stretching the truth a bit__Ain't it...???

If an individual earns enough money to buy an apple - then that amount of money shouldn't be worth half an apple on the following day.

Agreed...

Remove the association between money and survival (so that all people have enough to survive) and somehow generate a system (if we need an economic) where the system doesn't reward the rich with even more wealth -

and we're there.

Agreed...

Increased wealth (potential virulence) needs to control itself immediately, rapidly - kinda' like the endocrine system's negative feedback loop.

- with particular emphasis on immediate,rapidly (exactly as above)
- in context of a financial transaction this meaning as soon as any money exchanges hands.

If the negative feedback loop wasn't instantaneous we'd hyperthyroidy ourselves into the same sector of space that the politicians are scheduled to inhabit (pay-per-view 8-8.30pm nightly).

Needs further explanation, to understand clearly...

If one has more money than another person - one can fit 'double glazing' resulting in lower expenditure on heating leading to the individual having even more money available -

which they can spend on buying a second property for rental -
which'll itself appreciate whilst earning them a high rate of return - which'll make them even yet even even more wealthy.

Perhaps we need an overflow ship to welcome the scientists, artists and engineers who fall victim to the selfish tendency.

You see, you are always looking at the problem from the epistemic(particular) perspective, and I'm always viewing it more from the ontological(universal) perspective, yet I'm also always including the epistemic perspective__But, imo, the ontological, being the larger, controls the epistemics of all humanity. So, we have the hierarchical system always bearing down on us__No matter what the system__Even the best system possible, will still bear down on us, but with far less harm than this dastardly ridiculous system. That's all I'm trying to get you to see__The Best Possible Ordered, Middle Way Path, of Common Sense Conceptualization...rrr

[SB_UK]

Yet, no cheating toward agreement__keep the debate going until honest truth is scientifically discovered__For all to see...rrr???

Exactly - - sense will prevail.

Money can stay if it's our only alternative.

It's convenient I guess -
- though we're really going to need to pull something special out of the bag in order to justify keeping it -

- all of the sins of man have been laid at its door.

It (money) is sinless though -
we however not so.

No need to scapegoat money
- at least if we need it.

~*~

If we simply turn our attentions to the needs of man and ask the question of whether human needs are more likely to be met in a money-filled or money-free state.

The problem we'll have is that
--- we have never experienced a money-free,
--- have had a poor experience of a money-filled
and (as a society)
--- haven't attempted to address the question of what human beings actually want.

So - what do human beings want and is money necessary in order to realise that future?

Human beings want to be happy.

and so ... ...

What is happiness ?
Realised by education - a mindset which defines a state of inner {freedom,peace,happiness} -
- the 'promised land within' of Judaism.

A role for money?
Maybe - though it's not enough to justify money if all we're seeking to do is engineer a lop-sided dependency -
- that is of region A to be supported by raw materials (sweat) from a quaffing region B.

Where's the incentive for Region B to work for Region A?
How would we prevent Region B working hard to deliver food to support the overly highly paid advertising execs from Region A?
Region A being paid overly highly (by private enterprise) to make adverts for ultra-high mark-up plastic nonsense toys which the hard working people from Region B are forced to buy for their impressionable children.