East Meets West Logic...

[labelwench]

Not necessity, not desire - no, the love of power is the demon of men. Let them have everything - health, food, a place to live, entertainment - they are and remain unhappy and low-spirited: for the demon waits and waits and will be satisfied.
Friedrich Nietzsche

[SB_UK]

Sorry - I'm getting confused.

Can you describe the system which you have in mind in a simple sentence or two?

~*~

From above:

Point 1 (LG)
I can't find a difference in our views on 'liberty'
- my argument is that your view leads onto mine -
two concepts of liberty.
Both with their place in time during the human life-time.

More explicitly that children up until maturity of mind require to be contained within a more rigid system controlling their civil liberties until they're ready to be set free.

Point 2 (LG)
'stretching it'

The only question which I need to have answered is how does one earn money in a World in which earning money is required and where money itself is bad?

Point 3 (LG)
'further explanation'


Counter-balance to ensure balance when imbalance occurs.

[SB_UK]

Not necessity, not desire - no, the love of power is the demon of men. Let them have everything - health, food, a place to live, entertainment - they are and remain unhappy and low-spirited: for the demon waits and waits and will be satisfied.
Friedrich Nietzsche

The love of power is a function of desire.
Nietzche is wrong.

Lose desire and one loses the desire for power.

What's left when one loses desire?

The unassailable belief that one has no right to determine the behaviour of another
- though the flipside of that coin being that no other has the right to command 'you'.

The love of power is lost as we drop desire.

It's the reason why so many of our truly great intellectuals who could have commanded as much power as they desire -
- became reclusive.

Pirsig? Salinger? Sanger?

~*~

Notably -
Although
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny
'Nietzsche's reputation as a misogynist is disputed by some'

- I am pretty sure that hitting duality with a partner is an absolute requirement in seeing oneself around the viewpoint that
'the love of power is a persistent demon of man'
into the higher perspective where one is permitted a metalevel perspective down on that former state where the individual truly felt that way.

Nietzsche would have lightened up if he'd allowed himself to fall in love with a dual from which perspective at duality he'd have been considerably less negative about life.

~*~

Three states of mind

Stage II (desire - physical procreation) is where all of our problems arise -
it's a stage of man - state of mind which we're meant to pass through.

If we don't we become trapped in a dystopian nightmare where we're striving to reach a place where we belong -
without any capacity to escape the trap which duality springs.

[SB_UK]

Nietzsche
'the love of power is the demon of men'
== Stage II

==

Peirce (from above p.19)
'The second group respect nothing but power'
== Stage II

==

Vishnu / Lakshmi of the Trimurti
== Stage II

~*~

Stage II precedes Stage III

Birth -> caterpillar -> butterfly

- there's a purpose to Stage II (-> procreation) -
- after which the human life cycle pupa hatches to deliver the human butterfly (a duality) - Stage III.

Both Peirce and Nietzsche are wrong if they believe that any person cannot shift from that Stage II frame of mind into a wholly better place (Stage III).

~*~

Stage III

A wholly better place characterized by the loss of desire.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Exactly - - sense will prevail.

Money can stay if it's our only alternative.

It's convenient I guess -
- though we're really going to need to pull something special out of the bag in order to justify keeping it -

- all of the sins of man have been laid at its door.

Imo, it's mans ignorance of money and self, that's the problem__not money, per say...

It (money) is sinless though -
we however not so.

No need to scapegoat money
- at least if we need it.

That's how I see it... We're just, through our extreme insecurity of intellectual immaturity are simply scapegoating money__When D-Problem is truly us...

~*~

If we simply turn our attentions to the needs of man and ask the question of whether human needs are more likely to be met in a money-filled or money-free state.

The problem we'll have is that
--- we have never experienced a money-free,
--- have had a poor experience of a money-filled
and (as a society)
--- haven't attempted to address the question of what human beings actually want.

So - what do human beings want and is money necessary in order to realise that future?

Human beings want to be happy.[/quote]
Many of the world's poorer communities, just want the chance to survive__pure survival...

and so ... ...

What is happiness ?

Realised by education - a mindset which defines a state of inner {freedom,peace,happiness} -
- the 'promised land within' of Judaism.

May I remind you again, that many do not want to be educated. There's a large sector of all societies that detest education and the educated__just a fact of life, and these people must be made room for, also. Happiness to many people is being as far away from the educated idiots(as they call em) as is possible...

A role for money?

Maybe - though it's not enough to justify money if all we're seeking to do is engineer a lop-sided dependency -
- that is of region A to be supported by raw materials (sweat) from a quaffing region B.

You mention the word justify, which is a word I never use. I don't look at things as needing justification__only function. What functions to the best possible order and well-being is all I'm concerned with__Physical and mental survival function, to what is best for each, in his own free-decision-making processes... And no, I'm not looking for region B to have to support region A__That's what we have now. We need a symbiotic incentivized relationship of money, among all participants__That's what the universal inverse law of value states>>"The more concentrated money is, the less value it distributes. The more distributed money is, the more value it distributes..."(Scientific facts...) This universal law just floated into my mind last night or early this morning... It took me all morning to figure out if it was true, and I finally realized it was__That's why I wrote (scientific facts) after it__But it is best understood as a macro/universal law applied globally to money, and not micro/particularly to individual nations, even though it can apply there also, under specifically stated conditions...

So, what I mean is, systems must be designed to bring the imbalances of wealth and poverty, back into a much more balanced condition__over time, which I've suggested should span a ten year time-frame__of sliding time-scaled(scaling) laws on money and taxes, so not to collapse the entire systems, which would only cause more wars, famines and deaths__which no-one wants...

Where's the incentive for Region B to work for Region A?

How would we prevent Region B working hard to deliver food to support the overly highly paid advertising execs from Region A?

Simply a properly adjusted tax, foreign exchange, tariff, currency and trade laws system change...

Region A being paid overly highly (by private enterprise) to make adverts for ultra-high mark-up plastic nonsense toys which the hard working people from Region B are forced to buy for their impressionable children.

Cut the Rich's throats, by taxing em back to non-greedy sanity, and closing forever, their favorite tax havens__All 37 of 'em__I ain't afraid of stating what needs be done, even if the rest of the world is... Ta' Hell with 'em__Let 'em hollar and scream about only them rich '*astards' having a right to their criminal gains. They stole it all anyway__So what's wrong with having government steal it back by new tax and market laws__for the people of region B, to at the least, be able to survive__again...???rrr

[SB_UK]

~

I understand your post and maybe -
I don't really know.

Survival is an absolute requirement and preventing abuse helps it to happen.

I'm simply suggesting that once people are all happily surviving - which will be our reality soon
- that they'll need something to do.

I'm trying to suggest that the process of construction of mind -> towards -> realising spirituality as the only path to happiness.

I'm trying to suggest that this is our life cycle -
and much as the caterpillar can only become a butterfly (and not for instance an eagle) -
- we only have the physical -> mental -> spiritual transition to look forwards to -

luckily though -
- it is enough.

So ... ... yes to your ideas -
merely trying to address the next couple of problems which we'll face as soon as everybody is fed -

- and in the process giving people a positive, credible incentive to change -
so that the whole process of change for the better 'll feel more joyous than it otherwise would.

If we're not careful we'll have an army of the currently privileged committing acts of atrocity against their neighbours or racial minorities
(who I sense - with the rise of the third World non-white communities
- may take a kicking (as things deteriorate)) -
(they have all of the guns after all)

- if the process of change isn't explained in a manner which meets with their approval.

~*~

I'm not trying to state anything more than the idea that the re-apportioning of wealth will be most easily realised if all people are brought up to speed on the shortcomings of our current system.

Far easier to introduce change when people see the need.

Enforced shifting away from haituation to a life of excess 'll get those Nationalistic juices flowing.
The Nationalist tendency is more than alive and kicking in Europe.
The Nations with all of the stolen wealth have the most powerful armies.

We're in a bit of a mess right now.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Both Peirce and Nietzsche are wrong if they believe that any person cannot shift from that Stage II frame of mind into a wholly better place (Stage III).

SB, please don't get Stage III Peirce mixed with Stage II Nietzsche. Peirce's life was dedicated to the changing states and nature of man/woman. Nietzsche was stuck in his false-power rut, of thinking all men thought like him__Surprise__They don't...

But, ridding ourselves of desire is impossible to me__and an undesirable state of mind__as how would one have the desire for a better world, at all, if not for that basic desire__Hope, our best desire, for any possible future... rrr

[SB_UK]

SB, please don't get Stage III Peirce mixed with Stage II Nietzsche. Peirce's life was dedicated to the changing states and nature of man/woman. Nietzsche was stuck in his false-power rut, of thinking all men thought like him__Surprise__They don't...

But, ridding ourselves of desire is impossible to me__and an undesirable state of mind__as how would one have the desire for a better world, at all, if not for that basic desire__Hope, our best desire, for any possible future... rrr

Yes - Nietzsche was trapped in Stage II -
Peirce provides us with a Stage III -

- though the colossal 5 paragraphs which I've read on Peirce - does suggest (though can be read in another way) -
that Peirce was listing men as being artist EOR businessman EOR scientist.

The change which is required to align this idea with biology is to place the artist, businessman and scientist as the three stages of man, where it is true and where (and exactly as you mention regarding Nietzsche)
- some men don't make it past Stage II.

Desire
Exclusively selfish desire as opposed to selfish & community-friendly desire dies.

Common-sense really -
- what'd happen if everybody sought to hurt their neighbour - this is (sadly) the key underlying trend which characterizes capitalism?

'brotherhood of man' + 'render unto Caesar'

Even if we do require intermediate financial systems in the transition towards the kinda' society which Jesus had in mind
- then fair enough
- as long as we keep our sights firmly trained on the
end-point of all of this.

Ours to work out the practicalities of making the process of change from here to there.

[SB_UK]

May I remind you again, that many do not want to be educated. There's a large sector of all societies that detest education and the educated__just a fact of life, and these people must be made room for, also. Happiness to many people is being as far away from the educated idiots(as they call em) as is possible...

There is no disagreement between us on this point.

The apparent disagreement is in the differing definitions of 'education' which we are using.

I agree with you in the context which you use 'education' in the paragraph above

- to the extent that I recently threw my phD thesis into the bin -
- the feeling was one of shame.

I fished it out -
though.

Not too sure why.

[labelwench]

SB, please don't get Stage III Peirce mixed with Stage II Nietzsche. Peirce's life was dedicated to the changing states and nature of man/woman. Nietzsche was stuck in his false-power rut, of thinking all men thought like him__Surprise__They don't...

But, ridding ourselves of desire is impossible to me__and an undesirable state of mind__as how would one have the desire for a better world, at all, if not for that basic desire__Hope, our best desire, for any possible future... rrr

Why are any of surprised to find that others do not think as we do?

Why do each of us somehow think that we have the one and only correct view of the world?

I stand by the comment of desire for power......in the form of self knowledge. Know Thyself.

That so many interpret desire for power in the negative context of holding power over others is an interesting observation for me.

To my mind, the only one over which any of us has any hope of holding any lasting power is ourself.

As for all of the teachers who have gone before, each has something to contribute. I accept or reject none in their entirety but will borrow from each if it serves....