East Meets West Logic...

[melanie]

Read between the lines.

Knowledge is not enough, to rely on, it is dangerous. Knowledge is borrowed, it is not Knowing.
Knowing grows with you, Knowing is a growth, an evolution, Knowledge is implanted within you from me outside, Knowledge is borrowed, it is counterfeit.
It looks like Knowing, it is not.
It deceives, it gives you a feeling that you Know when you don't.

The first thing to be aware of is Knowledge, the Tradition, the Scripture, that which has been handed over to you by others.
Those eyes are not yours, that light is not yours, and it is better to remain ignorant than to become Knowledgeable, because at least ignorance is yours.
Atleast it is authentic, at least it is true, at least it belongs to you

Out of the truth of ignorance, Knowing can grow, but out of the falsity of Knowledge, you will be lost.
Nothing can grow out of it. Knowledge is an accumulation of dead facts and information.
It has no life in it. It is very easy to borrow Knowledge.
That's what the schools, the colleges, the universities, are doing.
They go on transferring information from one generation to another.
They are the via media. And people who collect Knowledge from them start feeling that they Know.
But how can you Know if you have not Known it?

I can talk about love to you, you can listen to me, you can even agree with me, but your agreement is not the point.
I may be logical and clever enough to persuade you to agree with me but that will not give you any taste of love.
To know love, you will have to fall in love.
To know love, you will have to travel the path of love.
To know love, you will have to take the dangerous journey.

Knowledge is more of a certainty; Knowing is more uncertain. That's why people choose Knowledge.
Knowledge is more guaranteed, it has authority, centuries are standing behind it.
That's why every religion tries to prove that it is the oldest religion in the world.
Why? Because the older a religion is, the greater the authority it has.
Hindus say that the Vedas are the oldest scriptures in the world, Bibles and Korans are just very late arrivals.
The Vedas are very, very old. Why so much insistence?
Because the older a scripture is, the longer it has stood the test of time, the greater the authority it has gathered around it.
Millions of seers are witnesses to it.

Truth has nothing to do with authority, truth has nothing to do with tradition,
truth has nothing to do with the past, truth is a radical, personal realisation.
You have to come to it.
Knowledge is certain, the search for personal Knowing is very, very hazardous.
Nobody can guarantee it.
Danger will be there, sacrifice will be there, you will be moving every day into the unknown,
into the uncharted, and there will be no map to follow, no guide to follow.
Yes, there are millions of dangers and you can go astray and you can get lost, but that is the only way one grows.

Insecurity is the only way to grow, to face danger is the only way to grow, to accept the challenge of the unknown is the only way to grow.

Knowledge guarantees everything. There will be no danger if you follow the Veda, if you follow the Bible, then you need not worry.
Now it is Christ who has to worry about it, and he Knows.
You have simply to imitate him. And the seers of the Vedas know and Mohammed knows, so there is no need for you to make your own private effort.
It has already been known, you simply Believe.
All that is required from you by ordinary religions is Belief. But Belief is counterfeit, borrowed.

You have to grow and you have to take the risk.
In the open sky of the Truth one searches, with trial and error; many times going astray, and again and again coming back to the right path.
That's the only way.

Truth is not cheap, Belief is very cheap. Truth is very costly, you will have to pay with your life.
Truth requires total sacrifice, nothing less will do.
If you are Believing scriptures, tradition of others,
it is irrelevant if they are wrong or right, that is not the point.
They may be right, they may be wrong, but that is not the point to be considered at all.
Through them growth is not possible.
Those who have written them were grown-up people, mature.
They have asserted something that they have known, but for them that was KNOWING, for you it will be Knowledge.

Belief is communal, knowledge is also communal, Knowing is personal, Trust is personal.
You have to relate to God or to truth directly, immediately. You have to come to truth.
And it is going to be arduous because each step will require tremendous changes in you.
You cannot go to truth as you are, you will have to drop many things and the first thing,
is to drop borrowed Knowledge.

If you ask Christians what is to be dropped first, they will say SIN.
But they have forgotten what the Original Sin was.
The Original Sin was that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge.
They ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, that became the Fall of Man.
That is the real Sin, the Original Sin.
Sin has nothing to do with your acts, moral, immoral.
Sin has something to do with Knowledge.
That Great Parable is so clear but still Christian Theologians have misinterpreted it for centuries.

So the Original Sin is to become Knowledgeable, to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
Then what will be surrender? Then what will be virtue?
Virtue will be surrendering the Knowledge, vomiting the Knowledge, cleaning your head completely,
throwing all Knowledge out.

The apple that Adam swallowed is sticking in everyone's throat until this day.
And, of course, for Adam, Knowledge was just a beginning. We have accumulated more than Adam
because for centuries and centuries we have been eating from the same tree.

We have completely lost the space, the inner purity, the inner Innocence that comes when one throws,
renounces, one's Knowledge. Renounce your Knowledge.

In the Bible there is another beautiful Parable, the parable of the Three Wise Men.
Jesus is born in a stable in the poorest of poor situations. Then Three Wise Men from the East go seeking and searching for him
because according to their Astrological analysis they have come to feel that something of the Beyond was entering into time.
They are very Wise Men,, so learned that Kings of many countries consult them and touch their feet.
But still they go in search of this small child to touch his feet.
Their learning is nothing compared to the Innocence of this small child, just born.

This child has not yet eaten the Fobidden Fruit of Knowledge and this child is such that he is not going to eat the Fruit of Knowledge.
He is going to insist on remaining pure of Knowledge, he is not going to pollute his being,
contaminate his being. Something from the Beyond, something of the Divine has entered into the world of time.

Once you drop Knowledge you attain to clarity.
Look at small children, let that be your ideal and become a child again.
Only children have eyes to see. Our eyes are too full of ideas.
And Jesus says, Uless You become as these Little Children, You will not enter into My Kingdom of My God.
We go on collecting Knowledge, opinions, but deep down we remain the same, nothing changes.
We just go on painting our personality on the surface.

Everything that we go on doing on the surface will be just like changing a name.
Inside you will remain the same. Your Persona can never become more than skin deep, your Knowledge,
your identity in the world is nothing but a Persona, a dressing.
Go deep, go beyond your Knowledge, go beyond your name and your form, go beyond that identity that the society has given to you.
Look into your original face, the face that you had before you were born.
Now you have a false face, it has been given to you by the society, it is just a formality.
And if you think it is yours, you are in a very bad shape.

Somebody is a Christian, somebody is a Hindu, somebody is a Mohammedan, somebody is a Buddhist, all these are just superficial things, accidents of birth.
You are not a Christian, because Christ has not touched your heart yet.
You are a Christian because you were born in a Christian home.
You are a Buddhist because it was just an accident of birth, co-incidence.
It happened that your father and mother were Buddhist, hence you are a Buddhist.
But Buddha has not yet happened to you yet.

Remember, this is very cheap. Drop Christianity, drop Islam, drop Buddhism,
drop that which has been given to you by the society, by birth, by association, by culture, by country.
Drop all that so that you can and find out who you really are. These things will be taken away by death, death will burn your Persona.
And then you will come face to face with your Being and you will not even be able to recognise it, because you never knew that this was your face.
We live very superficial lives.

[SB_UK]

colour-coded post red and blue



... ... not knowledge (per se) but understanding.

Understanding requires that knowledge makes sense.

Once knowledge makes sense -
we have no more *need* for it;
it'll cease to have control over us -
- though we *will* continue to use it.
The *need* for knowledge is an attribute of unthinking desire or greed; it's the reason why people hurl themselves at the acquisition of knowledge -
- without needing to question their obsessive behaviour.

Once we're freed from the hypnotizing effects of knowledge acquisition, we're freed to (simply) use it wisely.

~*~

The difference between rote learning and understanding (the capacity to use knowledge)

- the two structures which're generated by didactic (boo!) and constructivist (yay!) teaching methodologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(learning_theory)

and

didactic

3.Inclined to teach or moralize excessively

.~*~

The didactic approach splinters understanding in the
acquisition of knowledge
- the constructivist approach generates understanding by building a single internally consistent logical structure (mind) - by building the mind.

The didactic approach teaches political correctness because it cannot confer morality.
The constructivist approach leads to the individual acquiring the quality of morality.

~*~

Stage I mind (no intrinsic morality)
->- transition ->-
Stage II mind (wisdom (intrinsic morality))

occurs when knowledge (which is required) is structured into an internally consistent whole

True morality arises as an attribute of the properly educated mind.

~*~

The properly educated mind required data to structure -
- where that data needs to be recruited robustly (the empirical approach) from nature.

Science recruits robust datasets which we then use to build and cross-validate our internal model of reality

- to understand our context is to be human
- requires data

- requires the scientific method
from which
knowledge structures
dissolving mind
realising morality
dissolving original sin.

[SB_UK]

hmmm...

that's interesting

SillySally's Signature written by Mikal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didactic

If the artist is more concerned with artistic qualities and techniques than with conveying a message, then the work is considered to be non-didactic, even if it serves instructive or educational purposes.

Stage I ->transition-> Stage II (in structure of mind)
represents the process of learning how to 'read between the lines'.

As Mikal writes -
~paraphrase~
- the words used by Corporations are 'life-less'
- without substance

- 'full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'

- we require more from words
- unambiguous meaning which arises from non-linear usage.

~*~

The corporate world seeks to sell -
- a function of the animal (savage)
- animal (savage) behaviour which seeks to exert control by pushing the individual into debt
(at their benefit)

The corporate world seeks to sell -
- a function of the animal (savage)

- explaining away why we cannot stand the Vogon poetry of the advertising Exec.

It's simply meaningless nonsense which is intended to mislead; where their only skill is in knowing how misleading their choice of words can be -
- before being attacked for it.

How many people realise that
orange juice is pure orange juice
- however that if we tag on the word 'drink' to
orange juice drink
- that this is a license for the company to add as much non-orange juice stuff into the bottle.

That's just not right - since the word 'drink' has a common usage which has absolutely nothing to do with the addition of artificial additives.

orange juice drink
-> should be renamed ->
Artificial orange coloured liquid
(Do yourself a big favour mate and go {squeeze,dilute} some real oranges instead).

It appeals to Stage I minds
- because it's constructed by Stage I minds to attract weak Stage I people into giving the advertising Exec's employer all their money.

Weak Stage I minds buy 'pretty' packaging.

Eliminate alluring packaging, marketing and advertising and a large part of our problems go away.
Hermetic packaging has become more valuable to the Corporation than the lump of plastic contained therein -
- is the weapon which the corporation uses to refuse refunds.

Complete pointless, nonsense Corporate nonsense, pointless people with their Nokia ringtones and designer ties.

wibble drivel dribble !

give me all your money!

The {private corporation, private system} has been set up by people who're considerably wiser than the people who run these private organizations
- set up to exert such overwhelming repression so as to Stage I -> awaken -> Stage II our species to its own humanity.

Proper human behaviour is only possible at Stage II
- where the transition to Stage II occurs only after acquisition and structuring information into a single internally consistent model -
(the mind)

the mind (aspirational form)
- a single internally consistent model representing the deliverable in process of understanding (external) reality
- of understanding one's own context (internal reality) within reality
by reflection
in reflection.

[SB_UK]

The corporate world seeks to sell -
- a function of the animal (savage)
- animal (savage) behaviour which seeks to exert control by pushing the individual into debt
(at their benefit) ... ...

The key part of this idea is that this behaviour is AUTOMATIC and is not intentionally exerted.

No concerted conscious effort to repress the individual -
simply the expression of a weakness from our evolutionary development.

An evolutionary psychological legacy.

~*~

The term 'Original sin' reflects an inescapable aspect of our comportement which we're unable to escape from,
until
until
until

we ourselves become better -

- the transition from Stage I ->to-> Stage II minds is the transition from
worse -> relatively better

- results in an end to the savage within
- end
to
original
sin.

[SB_UK]

Read between the lines.

You're doin' that thing again.

Stage I ->transition-> Stage II (in structure of mind)
represents the process of learning how to 'read between the lines'.

[SteveA]

These are beautiful thoughts (and eloquent too! ) and I feel very similar. I just want to add some additions:

Knowledge is more of a certainty; Knowing is more uncertain. That's why people choose Knowledge.
Knowledge is more guaranteed, it has authority, centuries are standing behind it.

It's a false guarantee less redeemable than air - at least air has a use and can be breathed and not blind you.

Though there is an ignorant bliss in secondhand knowledge. It feels as secure as the agreement of others but does this agreement change the weather or control the orbit of the Moon? No.

Which laws are most important to learn, those of men or nature/creation?

In the end people can decree truth to be whatever they want, but it doesn't alter reality beyond that and only individuals know what reality is - "society" doesn't taste or feel or see or even know anything and its opinions are definable at whim yet it can't even act upon them without individuals to masquerade in its guise as if it had a physical form and was capable of something. Only individuals can do the things society never could, yet individuals pretend society has some force over them like gravity, lightning or earthquakes.

In the end there was never anything more than one on one interactions and the rest was imagined.

Truth has nothing to do with authority, truth has nothing to do with tradition,
truth has nothing to do with the past, truth is a radical, personal realisation.
You have to come to it.
Knowledge is certain, the search for personal Knowing is very, very hazardous.
Nobody can guarantee it.
Danger will be there, sacrifice will be there, you will be moving every day into the unknown,
into the uncharted, and there will be no map to follow, no guide to follow.
Yes, there are millions of dangers and you can go astray and you can get lost, but that is the only way one grows.

Danger and sacrifice have also always been there and in this sense, these preexisting dangers or sacrifices are neither because they were not avoidable, and were always there and the uncontrollable is not important - because you can do nothing about it - it's once again the unknown and unimportant.

But the choices made about what to rely on are controllable and this includes the risks of relying on someone else (which is also a choice) and if one is not confident in this ability, then select those who have shown that care and the ones who brought you into the world or got you on your feet or that have stood by you or share your values etc. ... relying on words written by someone long dead or a self proclaimed social expert is like gambling at Vegas, unless you know their intentions to be true and good ... but if you can verify that they are good and true then you had no need to rely on them to repeat back what you already knew. The value presented by others is not truth itself, but the exchange of information from which truth is built - but only you know when that truth is reached.

Sometimes a reliance on others is claimed in order to attempt to transfer responsibility for ones own actions upon the person they claim to have relied upon. ("He made me do it!" - did he truly or did you follow him?)

The risks in life are unavoidable and in a sense never had a cost beyond life itself. Blind belief is just drifting without guidance. Finding that internal compass that remains true despite social whims allows you to always see where the winds of change are blowing and whether there are rocks ahead or clear skies and having the courage to act allows you to steer.

Insecurity is the only way to grow, to face danger is the only way to grow, to accept the challenge of the unknown is the only way to grow.

Yes, only opening your eyes when things are familiar and closing them whenever there is something unknown will never show more than a small plot of ground - is that what you want?

You have to grow and you have to take the risk.
In the open sky of the Truth one searches, with trial and error; many times going astray, and again and again coming back to the right path.
That's the only way.

We are held together on one path, which is one space, because we can only move to or become what we know to be possible - an inclusion of an unknown is creative but not directed and has no specific purpose except to allow unknown possibilities, but a continual inclusion of unknowns just adds more possibilities without realizing them - it's an exploration of other and is not controlled and is not representative of ones self and does not fulfill the desires of onesself - there need be no conflict though with directed growth because self controlled actions can realize those possibilities as the space of possibilities is increased and the space of possibilities is only increased when all the previous desires have been met. In either case, an infinite number of experiences occur, but in one case you restrain yourself (and it's easy once the value of this is recognized) and confine the current space of possibilities so that you're always reaching your desires, whereas in the other case you're continually grasping at unknowns and what you are is always a product of something beyond you - nothing is ever reachable in that case except whatever haphazard moment comes along and though the possibilities grow very large in this case, little of value is ever reached and it's always taken away in the next moment as another unknown is added.

The question to ask is - "What do you really want?" The universe will give it all to you if you know what it is. The universe will also give you more and even more and more than that and more, more, more ... is that it?

Just like you refer to (secondhand) knowledge, this more is that - the grasping at things that are not a product of oneself and the things that have no enduring value because they're constantly constructed by "other" and the dependency is like a drug - if you get lucky you might get a quick rush, but compare that to the beauty of the things that are in your heart and the most personal desires you've held and the dreams that have stayed with you and the desires to have a hand in it all.

If there was ever a hell, it needed no lock to hold you in - but could simply lead you off forever to a horizon that never held anything of value beyond it - the donkey following a carrot always just inches in front. That might seem like motion, but that's actually standing still - I'd much rather be moving for a change!

Everything needed is already here and has been here. It's simply a matter of becoming short sighted and looking at ones own desires and not being led astray

It all works from there and nature already has all the solutions. We can fight and try to be things we never needed or we can just take the winding path and grow slowly (there's no race, it goes on forever ) and see every beautiful thing along the way ... that's how it was meant to be.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Two paths__Two eyes__Two mind's eyes__Many Peceptions__Many 'I's...?_3D...?__Three+ mind's eyes...?

One eye looks toward the negative. One eye looks toward the positive. One eye sees the middle way. Which are you? Emmy Noether_'Miss Symmetry Laws', stated a field has two values; 0 and 1. The 1 being the positive__It exists and marches ever forward, never back__Gandhi's non-violent 'force' -> 'enforcedly'. All can 'free-will' choose either/any path, but the 1 is the only positive path of all feilds -> All F's__in their long march toward truth's pure aesthetic/esthetic/admirable 'Goals...'rrr

SB, still working on post #108, and post #112 is excellent...
Melanie, your post #111 is excellent. It reminded me of this:

[SB_UK]

9 mothers with 7, 8 and 9 being very special indeed.

---1---
Panchmi
23th September 2009
chakra 1 - wikiP/Chakra#The_Seven_Major_Chakras

---2---
Shashthi
24th September 2009

---3---
Saptami
25th September 2009

---4---
Mahaa-Ashtami
26th September 2009

---5---
Mahaa-Nabami
27th September 2009

---6---
Dashami - Vijya
28th September 2009

---7---
Lakshmi Puja -> gold
3rd October 2009
chakra 7 -

-------------------------------------
---8---
Kali Puja -> the end
17th October 2009
chakra 8 - departure from body
-------------------------------------

---9---
Saraswati Puja -> a brand new day
20th January 2010
chakra 1* - 'toot toot!' - all aboard for pastures afresh

~*~

Lakshmi -> Kali
Lakshmi -> Kali -> Saraswati [Hindu Goddess of wisdom]

Vishnu -> Shiva
Vishnu -> Shiva -> Brahma


knowledge ->- through understanding ->- wisdom

black gold ->- through understanding ->- pure water

~*~



An orthogonal switch in frame (of duality) of thyroid -> parathyroid



from sagittal to coronal plane.



~*~

Orthogonal evolutionary switches
- the ascent of man.


'woof !'

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Two Worlds__Imagination / | \ Facts...
Other's eyes, within our eyes/'I's
"The night has a 1000 eyes/'I's..." me

Yeah SB, just to let ya know some of what, already looking at...
Need better graphic models of solar scalar waves...
Need better graphic models of vector spaces at the qm level of crystal structures_chemo-bio...
Mixing all universal discipline resources...
BTW, my daughter has her own private school, and teaches all this_I assist, 'musta' come from her childhood, when her mother and I considered/debated all these states...
What's missing here is C.S.Peirce's categories/classifications: He studied all this also...
'Iffa ya' notice, Peirce's are most/some opposite those classifications below, but that's not a difference. Peirce classified from the most concrete instincts/spirit at ground level, to the hightest abstracts at the higher levels, which simply and merely influence the concrete level. And, Peirce's metaphysics is much the same principles as below...
As you'll notice HERE, I don't see any concrete diffs between the hearts of East or West, natural or academic, thinking; since the 'logica docens' is entirely dependent on the a priori 'logica utens' for total continuum functioning...



And:



In general...rrr
Lotta info needed to process, mentally__if even possible...???
The complexity prob__'iffa ya knowa whatta I meen...'

[labelwench]

Experience is the only form of 'knowing' that I am familiar with.

I seek mentors with experience, not theory or credentials. Those are just accolades granted by others, often with less experience.

Theories, I can postulate myself, and work with others in proving or disproving them.

The journey of life is about experiencing things first hand.

We can acquire information from a myriad of sources. We can share the information and wax eloquent about our own experiences, but no one else can actually 'share' the moment with us.

Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

Does this apply to electro-magnetic energy fields, our life force?

Intellectual intimacy is the only medium I can imagine where two or more beings can actually 'share' simultaneously.

That study is in the realm of the paranormal. Some claim to have experienced it.

Just my $.02 worth.

Apologies if I have disrupted the flow.....

Lorrina