East Meets West Logic...

[labelwench]

....that my main interest is interdisciplinary communication. That's more what I'm always working on than any other aspect__than any particular thing I may state__It truly intrigues me how so many of the world's citizens, can not communicate much more than the weather.

Originally posted by Lloyd Gillespie

When I was working with students of the horse, I was fortunate, in that they all came to me with a common interest, the strong desire to learn about the subject animal.

In horses and humans, I have always found that the easiest to teach were those that had no prior experience with the subject matter. A two or three year old colt, range raised and untouched by humans, is safer to gentle and train than a poorly disciplined pasture pet that has been allowed inappropriate familiarities. Likewise persons who came to me with limited exposure to horses.

With both species again, the first step in teaching was to establish trust and comfort, as a framework in which to learn. That first step could take a very long time, yet once in place, advancement was possible.

Why can so many communicate little beyond the weather?

These are my observations.

1. The weather is equally applied to all, and so provides a common topic of interest.

2. One may comment objectively about the weather without fear of rebuttal. Introduce a subjective opinion (Gee, this rain sucks!) and you will encounter opposition. (Actually, it's great that I don't have to water the garden.)

3. Communication utilizes a great deal of energy, and many people do not have the luxury of time and energy to spare for the learning of and dissemination of multi-disciplinary information.

One can only speak to those matters of which they have experience, by theory or experimentation.

Our brains at birth are perhaps akin to a computer just out of the box, with a processor, hard-drive and RAM. The jury is still out on just how much software we are born with.

In the process of living, we acquire software and data through experience and education, both formal and informal.

How so then, would you expect computers with different software and operating systems to be able to exchange similar, and in some cases very different data, without loss or corruption of same?

This, in my observation, is much of the difficulty in communicating ideas between persons with different education, experience and degree of interest.

That, and the potential and capacity of people is so divergent that there shall be many instances that even when the desire to communicate is strongly felt, there may not be the possibility of thorough comprehension.

Though you spend your life with a significant other, may you really ever know everything about them? Or yourself?

Regards,

Lorrina

[leskey]

Hi Lesley, and yes I think there really is, and one is Ben Franklin himself, as that was his statement__and he wasn't fully after power. He gave away the lightning rod, which others made millions of dollars on, at a time when a million dollars was a million dollars. He also started his career fighting for the underdog, which he really continued all his life, by fighting for the underdog status of this country to become America.

Power and vanity doesn't ever necessary need to be looked upon as 'not good', as the other side of power and vanity, is power and vanity for the advantage point of truly improving social and government systems, as many of the world's greatest philosophers, scientists and physicists tried to accomplish. If it enriched them or made them vain, who's to say it was 'not good' if it achieved a 'greater good' for their nation or world...?

Yes, tis true many turned power and vanity to great evil, and many concetrate on them, but my reading of history made me far more aware of the great deeds, of many great minds, all through the ages, and many asked for nothing. Look at Ibn Sina from Persia. He was one of the world's most studied, and was acclaimed as the world's greatest medical doctor, philosopher, scientist, logician and metaphysician for centuries. He was made wealthy by all the Kings of the Empire hiring him to work for them, and he could have had tremendous power, yet never tried to grab that power__He was more interested in the vanity of his ideas...rrr

Thank you for the reply, Lloyd.

The actions of benevolence and benefaction you describe, arise from the pleasure and enjoyment that is the the realization of great talent. They could also be considered the result of grace, rather than conceit.

[SB_UK]

Just one point.

• We are born into a state of selfish greed.
  
  Selfish greed is an inevitable attribute of our state of mind at birth which we may (and which many do) take to our/their death bed.
  
  This state of mind can only be altered (and selfish desires lost) through gaining an understanding of the world around.

~*~

Just one question.

Using simple language please explain how any economic system will eradicate selfish individual greed?

If you try to pitch your idea at an average 16 year old - it'd be much appreciated.
We have enough problems with words without courting ambiguity.

Here's my solution.

It is written in simple English.

• Explain why money is (at least currently) bad (by referencing the various paragraphs from all of the great religious prophets).
• Ask people what they think we should do.

And what will they think we should do?

There has never been a rich religious prophet.
There never shall.
ToE operates through equality.

~*~

It doesn't particularly matter if a couple of people disagree -
- what matters is what an informed people will want.

~*~

What does informed (in this context) mean?

• Explain why money is (at least currently) bad (by referencing the various paragraphs from all of the great religious prophets).

~*~

Plain English

What's your response when an individual persistently stops you in the street asking you for a kjhykdshfdskhf ?

~*~

If a person was talking to you using a language which you didn't understand - is it likely that any useful communication can 'go on'?

~*~

From ADDF:Meadd823
- people believe that when another person appears to talk with apparent understanding on a subject which they cannot understand - then they're believed.
People tend to defer to experts.

The problem arises when an expert is wrong.

~*~

I'm suggesting that all people can be made to understand ToE.

~*~

In line with Leskey's suggestion -
perhaps we should consider any individual who cannot explain themselves to the average 16 year old as having no useful information to pass on.

ToE is simple -
- human beings (however) make it complex.

~*~

So just one question:

Using simple language please explain how any economic system will eradicate selfish individual greed?


Note

Please not legal penalties and imprisonment on failure to comply; none of that works.

[SB_UK]

3. Communication utilizes a great deal of energy, and many people do not have the luxury of time and energy to spare for the learning of and dissemination of multi-disciplinary information.

Exactly.

All of our problems go away if people are required to express themselves in a manner which the average 16 year old child with an average 16 year old education can understand.

Otherwise - experts.

Where experts want nothing more than to bask in the supremacy of their expertise.

This represents the mental level (which associates with the physical level) of selfish greed.

~*~

So
- once more -
we're born into a state of selfish greed.

Selfish greed operates on the physical and mental level.

Wanting to either own more stuff than another or have more knowledge than another -
- and to personally benefit from the two.

So - the guy with a large house and Mercedes Benz
- and the guy who comes up with yet another computer program or Linux distribution just so that they can call it theirs.

All that arises is confusion.

~*~

Very simply - we don't need much more than a potato and some wood.
I'd rather return to that world than live in this current world.

We are not all dead if the financial system collapses -
we're all dead if it continues.

~*~

So -
one question -

How does an economic system change people for the better?

People change for the better resulting in people wanting to interact within a (at this point) fairly constructed economic system.

The problem isn't with money -
it's with people -

however money prevents people from getting better.

So - once again - in context of orange (above) and not (red) -
- money is bad.

[SB_UK]

A system

1. No wage
2. Collective (global) ownership of all things.
3. Local autonomy (a county for instance)
4. Any excess in local physical production is bartered beyond local scope (beyond the county).
5. All products are separated into physical (limiting) and informational (non-limiting).
6. Economics is forced into a new discipline which prevents us from depleting the World's raw materials - and envelops recycling (a defined recycling path for limiting raw materials).
7. Strict guidelines are placed on physical and informational product generation such that the physical product is (as above) - sustainable,recyclable but also fixable and upgradeable -

- with the informational product needing to be transparent.

Physical products
Sustainable, recyclable, upgradeable, repairable

Informational products
Designed to facilitate rather than impede people to pick up novel skills.

Take a look at the number of different ways of doing pretty much the same thing (some of which are proprietary)
- and we run into the problem which we now face.

An explosion of pointless complexity to the point where nobody (any longer) has a clue - and needs to buy everything he needs with the money he makes from disempowering his fellow (like the rest) man -

- until the whole lot comes crashing down at our feets.

~*~

We can survive with a potato and a couple of lumps of wood.

Nothing else is required - and perhaps in the future even less 'll be required
- ToE leading to freedom from environmental constraints

- our problem is simple

- to simplify.

Introduction of a One~Wage or Zero~wage system 'd help us do this.

Too much pointless complexity -
- all arising through people who don't much care whether they're understood -
want nothing more than to talk at people and to be told how very intelligent they are.

[Graybeard]

Ok Greg, I'll bite, but a mirror is just a reversed reflection, just as your reflection in water, so what's the point...? Physics is simply recording what it sees__It's own dumbness...

Thats not my point ... my point is this... that I can physically build a reverse-clock. Because the laws of Physics do not disallow it. I can build it exactly the same as the mirror image of the real clock.

It will operate exactly the same as the normal clock (or forward clock) it will keep the same time, and I will be able to read the time from it if I paint on all the numbers backward.

The same as I could physically build a mirror image car with everything on the other side and I could drive it and it would work OK.

Do you agree ?

greg

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Thats not my point ... my point is this... that I can physically build a reverse-clock. Because the laws of Physics do not disallow it. I can build it exactly the same as the mirror image of the real clock.

It will operate exactly the same as the normal clock (or forward clock) it will keep the same time, and I will be able to read the time from it if I paint on all the numbers backward.

The same as I could physically build a mirror image car with everything on the other side and I could drive it and it would work OK.

Do you agree ?

greg

And Greg__So what's the point...???rrr

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Thank you for the reply, Lloyd.

The actions of benevolence and benefaction you describe, arise from the pleasure and enjoyment that is the the realization of great talent. They could also be considered the result of grace, rather than conceit.

Yes Lesley, that's true__But I don't see how you could ever tell the difference, since all subjective realities of information is a private language process, of the non-conceptualizations of minds, i.e., anyone can lie... I experienced this first with a minister, when I was 13/14 years old__He lied about God, until I pinned his words in a corner. I then left the Church and never returned. Maybe you trust people's subjective non-conceptual words and ideas__I do not, as they always have the option of lying with the most honest of outward sincerity__I also experienced this from a con-artist, when I was 21. That's why I only trust verifiable logic__I can prove or disprove that to myself__Always. Mathematics/measurement is the only universal language that works for everone to prove all our logics and truths, or lies__'Equally...'rrr

[SB_UK]

__He lied about God_

because he didn't understand.
An understanding of God has become easier with greater understanding of reality courtesy of scientific instrumentation.

Maths and physics have tried their hardest to eliminate God from our minds
- and succeeded -
- only to rediscover a new (more realistic) God -
a God process which works to fill the metaphor of religion.

Once ToE is digested we're left with a scientific understanding of the only problem which has ever plagued man
- commonly referenced by the term 'original sin'.

'Original sin' is meant to reference the idea that all people are born into a state of selfish greed.

It's impossible to know who is driven by selfishness and who is not.

However
--- regardless ---
whether or not one enjoys killing one's fellow man -
one is still killing one's fellow man.

Two problems then -
If education is the only mechanism of killing the savage (original sin) - then wouldn't it be important to set about working out an appropriate form of education to lift the shroud on our own selfishness?

As soon as the shroud is lifted and we're able to interact with each other like human beings -
now wouldn't that then be the time to have a discussion about the economic model which we'd then like.

Attempting to discuss the economic model before the savage within people has been extinguished -
- will mean that there can be no agreement.

Since all sides will want what's best for them -
and no side will back down -
we're left (as long as original sin rules the roost)
- with the stronger (richer) side winning.

The stronger side will be the side with oil or gas within their stolen territory.

There is no such thing in nature as country.

Pollution doesn't respect National boundaries.


Conclusion

Nothing can be achieved until we work out how to expose the savage within to the eyes of all people harbouring this particularly nasty creature -
- this particularly nasty remnant from our evolutionary trajectory -
- residing (until mind is built) as a determinant of behaviour within our psychology.

Exposing greed is hardest in the wealthiest most powerful group in society
for obvious reasons -
- they of course do not like what they're forced to see.

"Exposing greed ..."

The words of the prophets 'll serve us better than maths and physics here -
- the words of the prophets are known (at least)

- now try asking the average 16 year old what they think about maths and physics.

The mathematical or physics-based approach might be the best approach to tackle mathematicians and physicists -
(and mathematicians and physicists would be the first group to tackle (as the most extreme examples (and confusing) to be found upon the mental level abstract layer)
- however the average person on the street will be phased at the mention of needing to acquire a mathematical or physics-based understanding of reality

- and as every parent knows - phase the child and they stop paying attention.

~*~

The only question which needs answering then :

How does one expose the individual's own selfishness for the individual to see?
- such that people don't simply shrug their shoulders and carry on about their usual business of killing other people through mental tyranny exerted through disempowerment by expertise.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

There are many major differences of how different people view the world of same concepts and non-conceptualisms. Let me see if I can sort this out for you a bit better__As we see two very different worlds__which is in reality the same world of diverse people...

Just one point.

We are born into a state of selfish greed.

Whether this be true or not is a subjective, non-conceptual(sight yes, but not a concept of feelings) opinion, and totally un-provable to another person, as only self-concepts, which allow objective comparisons and measurements are provable to another. Now, since this is true, I have never seen this world of selfish greed you speak of, unless I choose to take the negative opinion of my own world views, which I do not. I choose to take the positive opinion of my world views, just as did Marcus Aurelius, centuries ago__The greatest moralist warrior the world has ever known.

So, if you choose to process greed negatively, and I choose to process greed positively, we can never reach agreement on these subjective views__But I'm offering an objective system that functions with greed to reduce greed's harm, and I see what you are offering as a subjective system that is trying to function negatively against greed, which can only increase greed's anger to multiply. Now, I simply ask; 'Which would be better__to reduce the passions, or to inflame the passions...?'

• 
  
  Selfish greed is an inevitable attribute of our state of mind at birth which we may (and which many do) take to our/their death bed.
  
  This state of mind can only be altered (and selfish desires lost) through gaining an understanding of the world around.

You see, somehow you believe in selfish desires being lost, or transcended, and I do not. What you are born with will be with you all your life__NO-ONE can eliminate nature, no matter how many prophets and gurus state you can__They are Fakes__Only transc(i)ndence to the truth is possible__In other words__Go In__Do not fall for the fallacy of pseudo-transcendence__It don't exist!!! Greed is a lifetime requirement of our nature's very survival...!!!

Just one question.

Using simple language please explain how any economic system will eradicate selfish individual greed?

It Won't__and I've never stated it would. I've simply stated, we can reduce greed's bad side affects/effects with systems' law changes and or taxes on the Rich__Nothing more than simple economic truths...!!!

If you try to pitch your idea at an average 16 year old - it'd be much appreciated.
We have enough problems with words without courting ambiguity.

I've already stated it simply, just as above, many times, and you've always rejected all pitches as invalid to your own non-conceptual beliefs. In order to understand yourself better, I'd recommend Re-reading Peirce's 'Fixation of Belief' and see if you can find yourself in one of the first three types listed. I am the fourth type of mind/belief to knowledge system__Only...!!!

Here's my solution.

It is written in simple English.

• Explain why money is (at least currently) bad (by referencing the various paragraphs from all of the great religious prophets).
• Ask people what they think we should do.

"Money is bad" is your personal private language assumption/conjecture, which is not true to me, or most of the world__It's true to you, and a minority of Earth's citizens. The majority accept money as a necessary good, and government as a necessary evil__and the religious prophets have nothing to do with sound logic__as they use little of sound logic...

And what will they think we should do?

There has never been a rich religious prophet.
There never shall.
ToE operates through equality.

Who's Equality...? The same question was asked of pragmatism's value years past__Who's value...???

It doesn't particularly matter if a couple of people disagree -

- what matters is what an informed people will want.

Not true__It only matters what a democracy/republic logically or illogically passes for legislation__This is why systems' law over money, over people, is so all important...

What does informed (in this context) mean?

• Explain why money is (at least currently) bad (by referencing the various paragraphs from all of the great religious prophets).

Why would anyone explain money as bad, when it is not bad__It is absolutely necessary, either as paper chips, or computer chips, take your choice__Study your own nation's history of money, by Paul Einzig__To know why...???

The problem arises when an expert is wrong.

You have to get over the ego-fact, that all 'experts are wrong'__are not wrong...!!!

I'm suggesting that all people can be made to understand ToE.

I don't know how, when just two people can't inter-communicate__Yet...!!!

ToE is simple -
- human beings (however) make it complex.

Yes, ToE is simple__But human beings can't understand Simple...!!!

So just one question:

Using simple language please explain how any economic system will eradicate selfish individual greed?

No sensible/logical human being would even pose such a question__It ain't a valid logical question__It's ridiculous. Greed is good, well done, when not over-cooked...

Note

Please not legal penalties and imprisonment on failure to comply; none of that works.

Oh come on__please let me lock up all the world's non-logicalicists...'rrr