East Meets West Logic...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

(continued...)
Informational products
Designed to facilitate rather than impede people to pick up novel skills.[Has this evolution of informational products improved any global conditions, over the last 40 years...??? No__It's made them worse__From families of one wage earner, to families of two or more necessary wage earners__and working longer hours, for less real money__just to survive...]
Unfair competition - physical versus information[Unfair is a subjective judgment, in this case. What about the logics involved...??? Can you guarantee you know better than me, about what's good for me...???]
Not the sense which I'm using the term unfair in.
Unfair in the sense that Information and Physical resources are fundamentally different products and that it's unfair to expect informational deliverables to fit into a market which was shaped to handle physical items.
Suggestion - program counters time how long software is used for and bill accordingly -
not a workable system for physical level produce.
The word unfair is the subjective issue here... Epistemics finds logical fault with it__Too privileged...
Take a look at the number of different ways of doing pretty much the same thing (some of which are proprietary)
- and we run into the problem which we now face.[So everyone should be aided and abetted to steal from everyone...???]
That world is dying.[Nietzsche said, "God is dead." God says, "Nietzsche is dead." Subjective analysis can not prove that...]
Corrected the miscommunication in the section above relating to 'subjective'.
An explosion of pointless complexity to the point where nobody (any longer) has a clue - and needs to buy everything he needs with the money he makes from disempowering his fellow (like the rest) man - until the whole lot comes crashing down at our feets.[Complexity is a state of mind__I see no complexity...]
There is only simplicity.[Agreed, over-whelmingly agree...]

~*~

We can survive with a potato and a couple of lumps of wood.[Yeah, but who wants to__I sure as hell don't__I lived that way when my family was younger...]
Who has a choice?[Everyone who wants to make it. You have feet. You can walk most anywhere on Earth, to make a living any way you may...]
One needs to know that the work which one is being paid for isn't to the net detriment of the species.
As long as selfish local personal greed is so widespread - this question won't be addressed because all that matters to the selfish local individual is his own wellbeing.
Then get to the core of everyone's greed circuit__No-one's exempt...
Nothing else is required - and perhaps in the future even less 'll be required - ToE leading to freedom from environmental constraints - our problem is simple - to simplify.
Introduction of a One~Wage or Zero~wage system 'd help us do this.[A road paved with good intentions, often leads straight to Hell. Why...? Good intentions are often false intentions__Too subjective__Too empassioned__Far Too Far From Logic...]
and with no intentions? I have plenty of good intentions, but they are founded in a very thorough investigation of mathematical and geometric logics of necessities
The mind of selfish local individual greed will use all tricks to ensure its own agenda is met -
a common trick which this kinda' mind uses is 'it's in your own best interests'
And it's up to others to show the mathematical logic of what their concerns are__Not their subjective emotions of__Emotions are powerless, no matter what Spinoza said about it...
Alleviate human selfish local personal intrinsic greed and all of our problems go away.
[/quote]
You can give yourself a lobotomy if you want to, I do not intend to...

In all honesty SB, it's just the simple age-old argument/debate between subjective psychology and objective epistemology, as it's always been. Epistemology holds the power with it's use of mathematical logics...

"Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill." Why...???rrr

[Lloyd Gillespie]

But it's a particularly elegant solution to all of man's problems.

I agree it's elegant, except for the fact, it's perfectly impossible to eliminate an epistemic agent of our reptilian nature__Greed...

I don't really understand how one can display greed of an idea which one is explaining away for free.

You have strong passionate desire for the idea, don't you? If that isn't selfish greed, I don't know what is, when one keeps trying to push it with egoic psychological emotions, instead of mathematical epistemic systems' logic...

There is no possible benefit to the individual at the expense of the species which arises through making this point -
only benefit to the individual AND the species.

I'll need more of an explanation to try and decipher your comment.

I don't know how much you've picked up from the posts between our exchanges, but it all comes down to truth validity__whether based in un-provable psychology, or in mathematical provable epistemology. That's one of the main reasons Peirce developed epistemology further with his esthetics, which could graph and mathematize morals, psychologies and certain aspects of emotions__but only epistemology's totality is capable of this. Kant tried it and failed. Aristotle even tried it and failed, as did Plato before him. Peirce succeeded with his science of esthetics, where morals, certain emotions and psychologies can be bumped up, to logics and maths, and properly processed, into sound reasonings and new truths. Nobody before him, or since, accomplished this...

I offered a definition of local and global selfishness above -
stating that one was good and the other bad -
- presumably you're accusing me of displaying the lesser of the two selfish traits -
which I don't appear to be doing based on my definition of the two -

meaning that you may have re-defined the terms -

it's hard to tell.

No, I didn't re-define the terms__It's just the fact, I'm more aware of the extra epistemological facts of history than you. I know how to prove my positions logically mathematically, and psychologies lack that capacity, no matter how many psychological arguments and definitions are stood up. The truths of logical positions from epistemological reasoning can always knock them down, unless they are strictly logical, and sound to general mathematical reasoning.

It's just the way it is, math/geometry rules the minds of all of us, not any pseudo-privileged psychologies. It's nothing to do with me being intelligent or not, it's just the fact of knowing about scientific methodologies in so many different fields__yet not to be confused with other abused methodologies by post-modernism, I prefer to call mine Methodicity...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

It's all a state of mind.

The mind is a logical engine which alters in conformation based on information accrued and understood.
Overload the engine and it doesn't break instead transferring (under the hood) into a mind
only better.

I accept that as true, SB... Let me know if you understand the greed concept of epistemology's necessity over psychology, before I go any further. The mind's core, where it evolves from soul to intellect is quite simple, yet often complex, due to not realizing its importance. I noticed r.p.bibra just commented on this...'rrr

Thank you very much, for the special vote of confidence, LS...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The mechanistic basis to the love which Jesus describes is offered to the properly built mind.

You know SB, if one seriously looks at a red letter edition of the Bible, one will quickly realize Jesus used logic, and not morality or psychology__as the major and minor premises of his parables. Many logicians, mathematicians and physicists could learn something new here__And this is from an A-theist/Atheist...rrr

[leskey]

Thanks for the on-going debate, SB and Lloyd.

This post is necessarily repetitious. Our future requires foams, plastics, vinyls, fabrics, lubricants, solvents, resins...

Petrochemicals are only available where life has existed. Alternative sources of energy exist. Alternative sources of petrochemicals are a mystery.

In addition, when it comes to the world environment, we could all well agree that it's important to preserve certain areas. THIS WILL NECESSITATE COMPENSATION TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN THESE PLACES. I have no problem with this - let's allow them live like royalty, so we all benefit...however, there is no use in joining some world organization bent upon increasing the West's self-flagellation, while Indonesia and Brazil remain out of the loop, continuing to clear fell and burn what's left of a rare and precious resource and China and India are free to pollute the planet.

I read somewhere (wish I could quote) that all the historical pollution of the Western countries does not compare to the scale of what has been occurring in just these two countries over the past 30 or so years. Where is the sense in this?

How should these issues be dealt with - because they both require our undivided and urgent attention.

You know SB, if one seriously looks at a red letter edition of the Bible, one will quickly realize Jesus used logic, and not morality or psychology__as the major and minor premises of his parables. Many logicians, mathematicians and physicists could learn something new here__And this is from an A-theist/Atheist...rrr

Thanks for this, Lloyd. Not many people recognize this fact, the whole shebang being hijacked and manipulated from the outset by a greedy institution fixated on power and control.

100 or so generations of ritualistic behaviour later and no one comprehends the truth.

[SB_UK]

I read somewhere (wish I could quote) that all the historical pollution of the Western countries does not compare to the scale of what has been occurring in just these two countries over the past 30 or so years. Where is the sense in this?

The solution is easy to arrive at.

Replace selfish greed with altruistic greed.

No further words are required.

Selfish greed is the characteristic which is conferred by 'Original sin'.

Altruistic greed is the state of mind which human beings experience post-resurrection (of Christ), following re-birth (in Hinduism) or after enlightenment in Buddhism
- when one arrives at the internal promised land of Judaism.

I think that Lloyd is trying to demonstrate that it's impossible to convey this message if another person refuses to listen.

To be fair, I've made this point over and over again -
and of course do agree.

If another person chooses to put his fingers in his ears -
- then he absolutely (of course) won't be able to hear.

That's precisely the problem and the reason why this basic idea needs to be discussed in writing and anonymity.

The problem lies with the immature mind which can out shout its competition -
- any other voice which calls for collaboration and will not compete is of course out-competed.

We're lucky though in that as long as one has anonymity and is willing to communicate in writing and to clarify when another doesn't understand -
- that the most logical model will shine through.

~*~

There can be no economic or legal solution whilst selfish local greed is alive and kicking because selfish local greed will always find a loophole.

Everybody knows that tax havens are bad -
and yet they exist and flourish and all of the many people who benefit from them conveniently manage to ignore their own corroboration in an abusive system -
and why?
Because of selfish human greed of course.

Yay!

August 16, 2009
Dubai collapse

Sub prime Take II ?
or maybe
oil money to the rescue !

I wonder what'll happen.

[SB_UK]

I really do need to know why you're having such problems realising that greed is the sole determinant of 'nature' -
and though where there're effectively two types of greed
- bad greed and a good greed

- where placing power into the hands of bad greed is our problem here.

~*~

An economic and legal solution cannot work as long as local selfish greed is allowed to persist.

There's always a way around the law.
Lawyers are great at finding legal loopholes.
Economic systems can be circumvented.

If local selfish greed persists then there of course is mechanism to draw up, have accepted, enforce a fair global system.

Local selfish greed will always find a way.

~*~

There is only one solution to our current problem.

Combat local selfish greed.

It's the magic bullet which clarifies all that lies beneath.

~*~

Economics, law and politics are nothing more (and cannot be made to be anything more) than a competitive sport in which words are used to hide the fact that all politicians, lawyers and bankers are playing a game for their own exclusive benefit.

What can we be sure of?

That we are a collection of nerves. [require stimulation]
That we have physiological needs. [food,heat]
That the world consists of certain limiting resources which we absolutely do require. [and should look after]

We don't need much else.

These three points should be used to sculpt a post-local selfish greed global system in which global selfish greed (altruism) is free to knock itself out.

Will there be a economic, legal or political system afterwards -
I don't know -

post-selfish local greed we'll find that our world simplifies to the point that there may well be no need.

The important point though is that this system cannot work in a world in which selfish local greed predominates.

And so it'd be a little silly to suggest that the system can't operate currently.

Because of course it can't -
currently.

This is about the future.

[SB_UK]

November 27, 2009
Dubai in deep water as ripples from debt crisis spread

Fears of a dangerous new phase in the economic crisis swept around the globe yesterday as traders responded to the shock announcement that a debt-laden Dubai state corporation was unable to meet its interest bill.

See more viral lytic cycle budding pictures

Budding preceding lysis.

In plain English 'man the lifeboats 'cos she gonna blow'.

Re: East Meets West Logic...

East meets West in the middle.

Dubai (the middle) represents our planet's most significant bastion to local selfish greed.

Where the bastion

• A well-fortified position.

is falling.

[SB_UK]

... always overcome

The most sensible argument will overcome all-comers.

If one chooses to withold the most sensible argument and simply to point at its existence -
then we're magically transported into the Wizard of Oz -

- where Dorothy eventually realises towards the end -

that there is no magical Wizard of Oz
- is no magical solution.

There is no magical economic or legal solution to our current problems -
our current problems arise through a weakness in man.

We're born into selfish local greed and require it though are required to get over it before we're capable of defining any policy to which others must adhere -
and for why?
Because any policies which're introduced before we make the shift from selfish local greed to global greed or altruism will not be in the interests of all people -
will only be in the interests of a select few -
maybe just the one (the guys who has introduced the idea)

- no way of knowing.

~*~

We live in a shared World and must only introduce systems which lead to collective benefit.

Not really too sure why this point even needs to be made -
it's kinda' self evident, isn't it?

I can (anybody can) define the term collective benefit.

Freedom of Information plus Collective stewardship of raw materials.

One distributed University based research section and an automated (unmanned) Industrial section.

People are given complete freedom to do what they will from a restricted set of activities (compared to now) -
restricted only in the sense that the activities must not run counter the collective good.
Collective good neutral is fine, I guess
- though who wants to put their efforts into creating anything which has no external validity.

Not (in this case) selfish
- more pointless.

Have fun by helping others to have fun.
Such a simple formula to apply - with the beauty being that it may be applied intuitively.

~*~

Can't fight money with money or lawyer with law -
because local selfish greed entails that the more selfish individual will cheat.

It's impossible to beat a cheat if one cannot similarly stoop so low.

Attempt to fight greed with money and law -
and selfish greed'll find a place to hide from your law enforcement agents
- a place where he'll continue to unleash his dizzying abuse on all that he meets.

Maybe not Dubai these days - perhaps Monaco or Switzerland his next stop.

Always some place for him to practice his evil deeds.

Why not simply teach evil local selfish greed that there is another way?

Much easier ... ... no ?

He'll eventually discover it for himself -
- at least if he's interested in reading.

~*~

Human beings have been running headlong into local selfish greed in a misguided attempt to escape its clutches.

This isn't a difficult idea to understand and once grasped will be understood to be true because this idea helps to make sense of a large body of history which formerly did not make any sense at all.

Like, for instance why war?

War can only be waged if either or both sides are ruled by local selfish greed.

Global selfish greed or altruism knows that there's always another way.

There really is no point to killing people -
however until local selfish greed is killed off
- there's actually though no way of the mind of local selfish greed overcoming its emotions and complying.

The mind of local selfish greed wants to hurt other people -
all other people (regardless)
- though is willing to spare people on its team as long as there's another party (usually of a different colour) to unite against.

If there isn't - then greed for money takes over and building the individual's bank balance (his own local selfish greed) against all comers becomes his guiding principle.

We're particularly predictable people -
- and will remain so until we get over our own local selfish greed.

If it makes the idea more simple to understand imagine that we're born with blinkers on and are tasked with learning how to remove them
- where all this while we're at the wheels of a car.
The car begins to move at age 18 and gets ever faster as we age.
As we grow older the car we drive (on account of its increasing speed) becomes progressively more able to kill pedestrians -
- where failure to at least be able to peek around our blinkers results (when the car starts) in an all too predictable outcome.

So - and once again simply -
- no action (inactivity) until consequences of our actions are properly understood.
No action (inactivity,non-compliance) preferred over any behaviour which has wholly unpredictable consequences.

--- reference ---

genetic modification of crops

There's no way of knowing whether GM is safe or not; since the motivation of GM is purely financial -
- it should not be sanctioned.

Anything 'just for $ profit' is of course wrong.

There isn't any mechanism for a political, economic or legal framework to stop GM -
- one can only stop GM and its ilk by reaching an understanding of what we can and cannot hope to do with impunity -

- and not to do stuff which we're not absolutely sure is safe.

We're safest when we generate informational products -
run into the greatest risk of falling victim unto ourselves as we attempt to re-shape the physical world.

Taking scientifically validated routes rather than novel opportunistic paths which result in money gained for CEO on the back of collective pain
is the only way forwards.

~*~

So properly architected systems which are introduced to collective gain rather than first to the market substandard products which deliver little more than a bumper dividend cheque to the small handful of people who hold shares in one of our abominable conglomerations.

Money doesn't matter - people do.

It's important not to believe the politician, banker and lawyer when they state that we're dead without money

- we're not dead without money
they are.

We're dead if we don't have a couple of potatoes or some wood -
- and at the rate at which biofuels are shifting into agricultural enclosures -
we're about to discover that as long as we maintain the current political, economic and legal systems which we're unfortunate enough to have to support currently -
that maintaining our current systems of law and money necessitate that we've a cast iron guarantee of premature death to our species.

We only need a couple of potatoes and some wood; where are people trying to drive their biofuel based cars to.
There isn't anywhere worth visiting.

The combination of an e-book and imagination can take us any place we'd like to get -
there is no 'place' for us to drive our cars - no geographical place which we're seeking to 'get'
- the place which we're attempting to arrive at is within.

No potato + No wood -> leads to -> death.

The equation is simple - you don't need a clever philosopher to tell you how to think.

If we were to magically transform ourselves into a world in which there're free potatoes and wood for all -
we'd have a much better world than we have now.

And of course - it'd be sustainable.

Access to oil has somewhat driven forwards our rate of growth -
- and we're now at the point in our species population growth curve where we're discovering that it can't continue.

Once again then - solve the most fundamental problem we face and then allow the rest of the pieces to simply fall into place.

The core problem we're encountering is in generation of a program of education which the child's local mind of selfish greed unedrstands and which ensures their transition
(when the time comes)
to
proper maturity (wisdom)
or
global selfish greed (if one prefers)
~aka~
altruism.

~*~

Do we need more words?

You can't fight money with money or lawyer with laws for the only winners can then be money or lawyers.

That was the old failed paradigm.

The new paradigm will automate financial transactions out of the pockets of greedy bankers and free the species from its need for greedy lawyers.

And then we'll be free (at least this turn of the evolutionary wheel a-round)
- where round and round she'll continue to go.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Absolute Requirement__A Vehicle of Genuine Transformation...

No matter what our lil' ol' pea-brains may think, from the depths of our reptilian greed to the heights of the fully true virtuous integrity of our intellects, we absolutely need a truly viable vehicle of transformation and evolution, from the raw soul of person and humanity, to the all seeing heights of the intellect of redemptive truth... Now, what are the possibilities of that particular vehicle being...???

..................Self / | \ Other
.................Soul / | \ Intellect
....Selfishness / | \ Altruism
...............Greed / | \ Philanthropy
....False Virtue / | \ True Virtue
False Integrity / | \ True Integrity
..'.............Words / | \ Law
................Ideas / | \ Facts
....Imagination / | \ Logic
..........Untruths / | \ Truths
..............Money / | \ Computer Chips

The above is an optional bare-bones framework we can use to build the vehicle, we'll need to transition from the raw immature soul, to the mature intellect of global understanding. If you have a better options list, please post it...

The solution is easy to arrive at.

Replace selfish greed with altruistic greed.[An education and law system must be created to accomplish this...]

No further words are required.[Systems words required__The Middle Way...]

Selfish greed is the characteristic which is conferred by 'Original sin'.[No sin involved__Just reptilian nature's necessities. Imagination Trickster lives here too...]

Altruistic greed is the state of mind which human beings experience post-resurrection (of Christ), following re-birth (in Hinduism) or after enlightenment in Buddhism
- when one arrives at the internal promised land of Judaism.[No religious or spiritual experience is required__If one evolves the natural soul through epistemics' esthetics, to the mature virtuous intellect's pure and truest integrity, one arrives at a higher maturity, just as easy__without all the unnecessary spiritual baggage...]

I think that Lloyd is trying to demonstrate that it's impossible to convey this message if another person refuses to listen.[Exactly true...]

To be fair, I've made this point over and over again -
and of course do agree.[Except, I'm trying to get you to lose some of the spiritual baggage, so it will be more palatable to the farthest out__The business, academic and intellectual communities...]

If another person chooses to put his fingers in his ears -
- then he absolutely (of course) won't be able to hear.[Then the onus of the messenger is in question__Change the message to fit the ears...]

That's precisely the problem and the reason why this basic idea needs to be discussed in writing and anonymity.[The message should be filtered and refined to universal acceptability...]

The problem lies with the immature mind which can out shout its competition -
- any other voice which calls for collaboration and will not compete is of course out-competed.[And I see the problem as one of an imperfect message. Perfect the message to the universal ear, and all can hear it...("Let those who have ears, hear. Let those who have eyes, see...") Perfect the message, and all will have ears and eyes...("Tone the deaf... Sight the blind...") Focus the message 100% to the universal mind and soul...]

We're lucky though in that as long as one has anonymity and is willing to communicate in writing and to clarify when another doesn't understand -
- that the most logical model will shine through.[Yes, it will...]

~*~

There can be no economic or legal solution whilst selfish local greed is alive and kicking because selfish local greed will always find a loophole.[Focus the point of your message, as reptilian greed can not be eliminated__nature has her reason__Know it__It must be directed toward its universal purpose__Its goal of universal liberty for all__The ultimate altruism__The most admirable esthetic hope...]

Everybody knows that tax havens are bad -
and yet they exist and flourish and all of the many people who benefit from them conveniently manage to ignore their own corroboration in an abusive system -
and why?
Because of selfish human greed of course.[Because of the lack of truth in knowledge systems...]

Yay!

August 16, 2009
Dubai collapse

Sub prime Take II ?
or maybe
oil money to the rescue !

I wonder what'll happen.

A slight wake-up call, as it's been in the economic journals for some time now__Just the usual crowd stampede. It's got a ways to go, before the final floodgates of the entire global bond market collapses...rrr