East Meets West Logic...

[r.p.bibra]

The #1 natural law is the universal equilibrium of all the natural laws of mathematical logic.
The #1 law of mathematical logic is the universal equilibrium of all the natural laws of soul and mind...
"There's no decision without division!"
"To make abstractions hold in reality is to destroy reality." Hegel
The #1 law of successful communication - Successful communication must be based on a universal completeness dialogue of equilibriating gender egalitarianism.
"The theory of everything is an intellectual completeness statement of the absolute wisdom."
"When incompleteness views incompleteness, it is required to see incompleteness."
"Everyone has not only a right, but an obligation to honesty, to equilibriate own and others' views." LG
"I am an atheist of convenience, in order to truly study absolute logic." L.G.
"If we separate the natural law of supply and demand and put it in competition with itself, a perfect competition can be created, thus allowing a path to a true universal justice."
"There are no possible local solutions without tax access." J.R.Saul
"I want a world run by a virtuous computer…"
"When no laws govern your money, money governs all your laws." L.G.
"The stone child is sliding time scale law structures." L.J.G.
"Law - The wise restraints that make men free - liberty." J.Roberts
"The tradition of liberty is a living thing." J.Roberts
The #1 economic imperative law - All problems are economic!
"The many possesses a different logical truth system than the one!" me
"Godel's incompleteness theorem as applied to language - A separation of finite and infinite language possibilities is absolutely necessary to dialogue successfully!"
"Absolute truth only exists in the objective, and the objective of the subjective."
"A law of truth, logic and knowledge systems - All truth, logic and knowledge systems are incomplete, unless true to universal truths, of universal logic. Truth must be true to the natural universal balance - The self-reflective equilibrium of mind and nature. Self-reflective intuitive equilibrium is respect for and of one's own intuitive emotions and intuitive logic." me
"Wisdom is the intuitively logical perfect middle balance of all universal truths."
"We have the ability to computerize all global thought into understandable universal truths with a new intuitive wisdom logic."[/quote]

"Absolute truth only exists in the objective, and the objective of the subjective."

Prof. a little discourse on the above pl. love&regards.ls

[SB_UK]

The majority of people ... ... are muddling through as best they know how ...

The mind, at almost any stage of it's development, has an amazing ability to determine how best to fulfill the desires of the individual.
From there you may extrapolate to family, community, society, nation, etc.

If there is any "trickster' to blame, it would be the way we can rationalize almost any of our 'wants' or 'desires' into a 'need' for the greater good, thereby justifying whatever action you care to name.

It's the only 'logical' answer for most of the 'illogical' conclusions arrived at.

The evolution of the mind.

Can it evolve past the 'fight or flight', 'horde and lord' mentality at a rate and on a scale that can make an effective intervention?

How ever human minds operate now is just how they do, more like in their infancy than broken, although some may be, compared to the norm.
It's hard to change humans, as we don't want to tinker with the underpinnings of the mind. We can subjectively say that they 'should' do such and such, but, objectively, we do see that they can't or they don't.
So, what about that humans are responsive to the environment, such as a [new] environment and structure?

In red - highlighted agreement.

... so ... ... exactly.

Fourth attempt to reply to the sections above.

Simply

immature mind -> mature mind

If immature mind doesn't 'grow up' when individual 'grows up' then society will have a problem.

The immature mind and mature mind have different desires and chase those desires with the intensity which one would expect of a lifeform which requires some definition of 'greed' to survive.

All life forms need to exhibit some form of greed, because {greed,desire,motivation} is an absolute requirement of life.

So although this is true -

... has an amazing ability to determine how best to fulfill the desires of the individual.

needs to be tagged onto the idea that the transition takes place as soon as the individual is ready.

In effect

developed mind of man + developed mind of woman
-> leads to ->
a duality characterized by the stable pair-bond exhibiting wisdom

It is imperative that both man and woman develop their minds in order for both man and woman to make the transition to wisdom.

Development of the mind refers to a System level, consistent, logical overview of reality and is nothing to do with the acquisition of University certificates.

Unfortunately - a system which encourages molecular expertise results in the very mind which we're seeking to get away from.

Overly developed in just one branch of the tree -
almost as though the branch is hanging freely (suspended) in the air -
- the rest of the tree so underdeveloped that it's difficult to see.

~*~

It's interesting to note that barbarism appears to correlate with cultures within societies which mandate gender preference.

Gender preference (female abuse) including (most notably) witholding education to woman is seen (for instance) within the Taliban.

Repress the female (or the male) and a balanced duality cannot form.

Prevent a balanced duality from formation and the male will be fixed in the animal (immature stage of mind)
- and just as it is not possible to reason with an animal -

reasoned debate cannot be expected to succeed.

~*~

The basic problem with communication is that the other individual needs to understand the point which is being made.

There is a fundamental problem when the mature mind talks to the immature mind -
because there is (dependent on the nature of the argument)
- every chance that the immature mind actually cannot grasp the nature of the argument being made.

The reason for this, is that the immature mind has a simpler basic structure of mind which actually cannot 'associate' certain concepts.

Natural, to be expected - the purpose of education is to develop the mind from trigonal 3 planar to tetrahedral 4 structure.

From graphite to diamond.

Information (like sheets of graphite) slide over one another - do not hold together until that single additional bond forms - crystallizing diamond.

Diamond - 'enforced moral consistency' (or the morality of wisdom) which occurs as an inescapable attribute of the more complex (mature) model of mind forming.

~*~

Summary

Wisdom with balanced duality of the pair bond through Systems level education of man and woman.

Barbarism with

• repression (witholding
  {education,information} for instance) from {woman,people}
  or
• development of a detailed molecular expertise (to the detriment of the individual developing his own Systems level understanding (the big picture)).

Complete freedom of information
and
a Generalist (top to bottom overview) education for all - prior to specialization.

~*~

The Internet makes all of this possible.

Information just wants to be free.

[SB_UK]

- the purpose of education is to develop the mind from trigonal 3 planar to tetrahedral 4 structure.

Education for {wisdom,maturity} [tetrahedral 4 logical structure of mind]
not
Education for earning potential (molecular expertise) [unbalanced trigonal 3 planar logical structure of mind]

The problem is that the mind which spends its whole time locked in generating any complex scheme -
is happy -
is satisfied.

The mind is being used
- the individual falls into the trap of believing that there's a causal relationship between their specific work type and their happiness
- when there isn't
- the causal relationship is in the
use of the mind -> leading -> to happiness.

It's the reason why we find happy geologists and physicists who know little of each other's disciplines ... ...
... ... where I'm pretty sure the goal is to build the mind to such an extent that the mind 'goes away'.

The relaxing state of mind which we associate with
~ for instance ~
{prayer, chanting, meditation, during dance, in the zone (aerobic exercise) or daydream}.

- the individual falls into the trap of believing that there's a causal relationship between their specific work type and their happiness
--- and ---
that's the nature of the game - that it's possible for the individual to settle into some backwater of expertise and for the individual to be satisfied generating paper after paper after book after lecture which simply serves to confuse matters for everybody else.

Since ToE is simple and ToE is a Theory of Everything
- anything which is not intuitively understood is an example of bad design.

Bad design (at any level) leads to disempowerment of man since the average man is forced to need another; the plumber then charges whatever he likes for poor workmanship - and then denies culpability when the entire system breaks.

The important point then being that the individual needs to have gained a Systems Level education prior to chasing molecular expertise to prevent the individual from over-complicating the mindscape.

The nature of the mind at birth does not include any clause which states that the individual can only be happy when the individual is thinking about ideas which are useful on a higher (species level).

The individual could just as easily lose himself in a complex computer game (especially if paid so to do hence harnessing the 'reward mechanism') -
- and that is our problem.

Is the work which people are doing useful?
Being paid for work is not evidence of worth - in fact, in the very vast majority of cases - is evidence of the exact opposite.

I'm trying to suggest that nothing much of worth can be generated as long as the profit motive is exalted above people.

Whether the individual can grasp whether the individual is exerting net harm on the environment (polluting either the planetary or mental landscapes) requires the individual to sport a Systems level mind.
Otherwise - how can he possibly know?

Yes - you can generate a new vacuum cleaner - and it's better than the rest -
- though is it a worthwhile venture?

Or are you generating yet another lump of plastic which'll be put into landfill in 3 or so years?

Was the 5% improvement in technology worth the 100% increase in vacuum cleaner sales which your 'sexy' advertising campaign ensured came to pass?

~*~

Imagining how society need be restructured isn't difficult -
the practicalities of how to clean up the mess which the human species has wrought on our planet over the last couple of hundred years -
significantly more so.

As anybody know who has children
- they're much keener to open their presents than they are to tidy up.

And as mentioned in the posts above - the immature structure of mind is the child's structure of mind which predominates in adults -
- who for change to occur -
need
to know how to know how to be better.

... or more simply ...

To know why a specific type of education is necessary
which is an absolute pre-requisite
To knowing how to become better.

At this point the individual will understand (for themselves) all of the above.

[SB_UK]

"Absolute truth only exists in the objective, and the objective of the subjective."

A complex number comprises a real and imaginary part.

Real and imaginary are duals in which we should imagine them as being on two different levels in a hierarchy.


---real------imaginary---
---real---

At duality we generate a complex number


---real------imaginary---
---real---

- returning to LLoyd's image of duality

/|\

we're left with a continuity |

"Absolute truth"

between all structures /\

"subjective and objective"

So ... ... the subjective and objective as being synonymous with real and imaginary


- and with absolute truth representing the connection between structures -

- the precursor or energetic input which powers structure.

~*~

A simple model of motion within a Planck length standing matrix driving evolution -
- or in an image -

a still lake being driven to support structure by throwing a stone in and observing the ripples which ensue.

[SB_UK]

Taliban.

Duality is the second major principle of Islam [LINK].

A good teacher 'd make all of the bad stuff go away.

And what'd be the teacher's most important message?

A geometric process of evolution from unknowable (God) which operates through duality formation.

Islam's first principle is submission ......
Islam is a chain of submission. The ranking of authority is Allah (God) ... ...

Islam's first and second principle is of
a geometric process of evolution from unknowable (God) which operates through duality formation.

And that is all we need (to understand reality).

It's 'all the same' and is simply a story which cannot be understood (deeply for oneself) until you're *there* -

where *there* relates to having acquired sufficient understanding of reality to acquire the more complex model of reality (or mind).

To understand enough of the world around for one's mind to grow up
cf. puberty where the physical body grows up.

Religious and Scientific texts share this same simple message -
that our minds need to grow up
- as their most important part.

On the day that your mentality catches up with your biology - come round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up_udB8MvZQ

On the day that your mentality catches up with your biology - one comes 'round'


biowe come round (after a particularly nasty-ISM nightmare)
biology / |
biology / | \ mentality (higher -> not that it matters in a duality)

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The #1 natural law is the universal equilibrium of all the natural laws of mathematical logic.
The #1 law of mathematical logic is the universal equilibrium of all the natural laws of soul and mind...
"There's no decision without division!"
"To make abstractions hold in reality is to destroy reality." Hegel
The #1 law of successful communication - Successful communication must be based on a universal completeness dialogue of equilibriating gender egalitarianism.
"The theory of everything is an intellectual completeness statement of the absolute wisdom."
"When incompleteness views incompleteness, it is required to see incompleteness."
"Everyone has not only a right, but an obligation to honesty, to equilibriate own and others' views." LG
"I am an atheist of convenience, in order to truly study absolute logic." L.G.
"If we separate the natural law of supply and demand and put it in competition with itself, a perfect competition can be created, thus allowing a path to a true universal justice."
"There are no possible local solutions without tax access." J.R.Saul
"I want a world run by a virtuous computer…"
"When no laws govern your money, money governs all your laws." L.G.
"The stone child is sliding time scale law structures." L.J.G.
"Law - The wise restraints that make men free - liberty." J.Roberts
"The tradition of liberty is a living thing." J.Roberts
The #1 economic imperative law - All problems are economic!
"The many possesses a different logical truth system than the one!" me
"Godel's incompleteness theorem as applied to language - A separation of finite and infinite language possibilities is absolutely necessary to dialogue successfully!"
"Absolute truth only exists in the objective, and the objective of the subjective."
"A law of truth, logic and knowledge systems - All truth, logic and knowledge systems are incomplete, unless true to universal truths, of universal logic. Truth must be true to the natural universal balance - The self-reflective equilibrium of mind and nature. Self-reflective intuitive equilibrium is respect for and of one's own intuitive emotions and intuitive logic." me
"Wisdom is the intuitively logical perfect middle balance of all universal truths."
"We have the ability to computerize all global thought into understandable universal truths with a new intuitive wisdom logic."

"Absolute truth only exists in the objective, and the objective of the subjective."

Prof. a little discourse on the above pl. love&regards.ls

Hi LS, and thanks for picking out the most important quote of the above mentioned, since the explication to this may expose the deeper levels of all minds concerned. First, let me also enter a post of Lesley’s from another thread, as it helps with what I will explain:

Purpose is to be found in objectifying our subjective 'reality.'

Sensations, based upon locations in time, are the input.

The object of knowledge is to comprehend truth. The object of language is to convey truth. Any other motivation is false.

And, Lesley has put it very precisely__’Purpose is to be found in objectifying our subjective ‘reality.’’, and ’Sensations, based upon locations in time, are the input.’, and that would be the input into our perception/cognition engine, while the first quote, would be the choice of which direction of judgment into our will, to enter into our views/perspectives, i.e., whether to stay with the subjective views of reality, or to process either the internal information, or the external information, with either the subjective judgments entered into will and action, or the objective judgments entered into our will and action. My quote of__’Absolute truth only exists in the objective, and the objective of the subjective.’, is meant to show the third alternative of processing either the internal or external informations of judgments of will to action, from taking the fully objective perspective from the continuum of mind, itself, or as SB has stated it also, the continuum between dualities, but with my extension to include both subjective and objective perspectives at once, when doing the mental processing. This is the most difficult triadic position to comprehend and use, because it entails using diagrams of the mind, not to get the epistemic essence agents confused, when theorizing the results of building any hypothesis of reality, whether with the subjective or objective positions, held to be true by the two different communities of thinkers, best expressed by youth and age__as youth usually processes information from the more subjective side of the mind, while age usually processes information from the more objective side of the mind. And I am usually talking about processing most of my information from the supra-objective middle position of the graphed continuum center of the mind…

Now, if any of that makes sense to the subjective side of the mind, I can not tell, as when I was young, I was always jumping from the subjective to the objective processors of mind, because I’d early-on, as a child, been taught in both schools of thinking, by my family experiences, due to being raised in a house with many religious women, and a mother who was a subjective as well as an objective mathematician, as well as religious, and a father who was a thoroughly objective engineer, and a grandfather who was a thoroughly objective processor of the objective position of both the subjective and objective values and sciences sides of the minds, as he was a Peircean College Professor. So, as you may well imagine, I had quite the varied choices of judgments to run through my personal will, to fulfill my life’s actions. What I’m stating as ‘the objective of the subjective’, is the fact that I full well recognize that all information is processed internally in perception, which some would consider a subjective source of the information processed, whereas; I only see information sourced in the external objective world, while what the subjective community often sees as perception being the subjective ground of all processing, I see it as a mathematical processor, which derives its a priori function from the external world, at its deepest levels of function. In other words, if perception were never fed the external mathematical information, it would never recognize its mathematical essence capacity.
(continued...)

[Lloyd Gillespie]

(continued...)
Now, I admit there’s still great argument in this view, not only in the psychological community, but all the way through the epistemological community, and on into the artificial intelligence communities__but, the most successful AI advances have been made through looking at the entire internal process as ‘the objectivity of the subjective’ essence, as represented on paper with graphs and graphics, which has been done since the Greeks, with geometry, all the way into the AI communities. We/they can’t build and create the advances in processing abilities, whether SB’s games analogies, or any higher order processing organizations, until they de-subjectivize the mind’s internal, i.e., seemed subjective processes, without its external objective representations by diagrams, graphs and graphics__Which is what I mean by objectifying the subjective, as Lesley has also stated. What I have described of the computer AI community, is also what the youth to age process is all about. We as men, go through two major mental state changes in our lives, not only the sexual maturation stage of between say 41 to 55, but often extended to death through maintaining what SB has described as staying in the immature state of mind to death__but also the more important mind state changes of between 27 to 32, 33 years of age, also. This earlier mind state change is the transition of the subjective to the objective mind state changes, and if full maturation is achieved at this age, which it’s often not, but this final mind state change would be to the capacity of totally objectifying of the subjective states of mind, to view the highest states of mind possible, as the modal logics of possibility, probability and necessity, and that necessity further objectified to a perceptronic(futures) logic of necessity, that includes the ‘ought logic’(true mathematical incentivized liberty) of possible, probable and necessary models of our future states of mind and models’ realities of. In other words it allows us to see and mathematize future possible, probable and necessary worlds. This has been the goal of modal S5 logic for years, since first being set forth by C.I.Lewis, after further interpreting Peirce’s work in graphic and modal logics, and since carried on by Hintikka…

Next, let me take the debate back to the purely subjective state, of mental state processing. If all thought processing be cornered into the subjective only, here’s some of the results. Take the ‘Man’ of SB’s maturation process only, and see where this process evolves to. No matter how much information of psychology, culture, subjects and matters of every type and kind imagined, this process of what could be considered ‘total personal enlightenment’, leaves the individual with a mind full of information to the max(the impossible complexity of), with only one pen or tongue to spread the ideas to his fellow ‘man/woman’ which, without a system of categorizations, is absolutely impossible, so the one ‘Wise Man’ is nothing but a subjective myth__It’s an impossibility of use to the real world, because 5,000 years of recorded history shows this has been impossible, and any logical reasoning of the vast problem of spreading trillions of trillions of bits of subjective information, without a category system, is absolutely logically impossible(complexity), therefore; we have the many long lists of categories of academics, as the only possible scientific method of disseminating true and real information to the public__as the pen and tongue of one person is impossible of the task, unless the ‘One Man’ accepts the forms of categorizations, academic history has developed before-hand. In other words, there’s no humanly possible method of spreading the truth to the world, except by the existing scientific methods of dissemination. The ‘One Man/Woman’ either works within the existing systems’ categories of history, or is completely forgotten and ignored by history. That scientific method is the objectifying of all the subjective information__Always has been, and always will be__Because the single tongue can’t speak with a million forks at once. The world is protected from the single individual, unless he acts within the existing categories and systems, as even Hitler was forced to do, yet thankfully today, I hope we’re not dumb enough to follow another Hitler, but the 'radical' Islamic world is following another Hitler, named either Bin Laden or Sayid Qutb…
(much more later...)

from SB's post...

Originally Posted by r.p.bibra
"Absolute truth only exists in the objective, and the objective of the subjective."

A complex number comprises a real and imaginary part.

Real and imaginary are duals in which we should imagine them as being on two different levels in a hierarchy.


---real------imaginary---
---real---

At duality we generate a complex number


---real------imaginary---
---real---

- returning to LLoyd's image of duality

/|\

we're left with a continuity |
Quote:
Originally Posted by r.p.bibra
"Absolute truth"

between all structures /\
Quote:
Originally Posted by r.p.bibra
"subjective and objective"

So ... ... the subjective and objective as being synonymous with real and imaginary[My position is just the opposite of priorities, i.e., objective as the real maturity, and subjective as the imaginary immaturity__yet both are actuals and necessaries.]


- and with absolute truth representing the connection between structures -

- the precursor or energetic input which powers structure.

~*~

A simple model of motion within a Planck length standing matrix driving evolution -
- or in an image -

a still lake being driven to support structure by throwing a stone in and observing the ripples which ensue.

[SB_UK]

subjective and objective as being synonymous with real and imaginary[My position is just the opposite of priorities, i.e., objective as the real maturity, and subjective as the imaginary immaturity__yet both are actuals and necessaries.]

Working out which way around it is, is really difficult.

Exactly as you mention - in standard communication, I use subjective to indicate immature and objective to indicate mature -

where selfish greed is a subjective attribute whereas altruism is an objective attribute (from the perspective of the individual).

Selfishness at an individual level (where the individual only benefits).
Selfishness at the species level (where all individuals benefit).

In this case -
subjective as the imaginary immaturity and objective as the real maturity

... ... requiring an explanation of why I had the two in the other order.

So ... ... Why? real (subjective) imaginary (objective)

I think it's because

subjective 1 -> aspires to -> objective 1 whereupon achieving its aspirations {{{subjective 1 - objective 1}}} then becomes subjective 2.

More simply ... ...

I think I'm suggesting that the transition of

local greed (classic selfishness) -> global greed (altruism) results in local greed actually being supplanted by global greed within the mind of the individual ... ...

So ... ... Why? real (subjective) imaginary (objective)

This idea placing 'objective' as an eternal though shifting (improving) aspiration.

subjective chases objective
- as soon as subjective catches objective - at duality - a new subjective is seeded resulting in a new objective needing to be found.
Subjective 1 chases Objective 1
[Subjective 1 --- Objective 1] generates Complex 1
Complex 1 becomes Subjective 2
Subjective 2 chases Objective 2.

~that is~
... ... that a unidirectional process of evolution with stopovers at the speciation event -
needs to have a next speciation event immediately post- the previous speciation or emergent event

- to attract the species towards.

~*~

So

real 1 searches for imaginary 1 -> becomes complex 1 becomes real 2 ... ... searches for imaginary 2 -> becomes complex 2 becomes real 3 searches for ... ... ...

??? Imaginary ??? as (to mind of man) the elusive dream which vanishes as its realised and replaced by something new.

This idea placing 'objective' as an eternal though shifting (improving) aspiration.

[SB_UK]

another attempt

--- I ---
Homo sapiens sapiens is born into the selfish individual state
--- II ---
Homo sapiens sapiens can achieve the selfish species or altruistic state

Subjective for --- I --- and Subjective for --- II --- have different meanings.

Objective for --- I --- and Objective for --- II --- have different meanings.

I think that Objective for --- I --- is the same as Subjective for --- II ---
raising the question of what Objective for --- II --- is ?

Objective for --- II --- would represent a very necessary novel motivation which need kick in when the motivation of Objective --- I --- has long since been passed.

'The drugs don't work,
they just make it worse ... ...'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4XCGeckA-E

The motivation for Subjective --- I --- (to arrive at Objective ---I---) is tied into the endogenous central neural circuit which gives us addiction

- all {addictions, addictive behaviours}.

Literally then - the drugs don't work as one makes the transition from Subjective --- I --- to Subjective --- II --- leaving a vacuum as one awaits (from the vantage point of Subjective --- II ---) an awareness of Objective --- II ---.

Either of chiding or tidying up after Subjective ---I--- can only get one so far before one finds oneself overwhelmed by hollow apathy.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Feelings of self-importance are due to survival needs?

Everything that is part of us—
Our cells, tissues, organs and organ systems—
Has come about over billions of years
Because it proved successful in the great survival stakes
During our perilous evolutionary descent with modification.

The brain, being no exception, evolved, in part,
To allow a creature to learn from what happens in its life,
To retain key elements that could influence future actions.

We are geared for self-preservation.
We will do anything to avoid facing the possibility
That who we are now cannot continue.

We ourselves are mainly the cause that we are interested in.
The self is preoccupied with staying alive,
Which is why our species is still around today.