East Meets West Logic...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The one that will allow me to understand.

And more importantly, the one that will allow me to share that which I believe that I understand......

For the purpose of knowing would seem to be in sharing......

......and the sharing must serve a greater purpose.

Why else would so many work so hard at the task?

It's just the fact, the closer one gets to the simplicity of it all, the more one desires to share this new-found simplicity. But, when one arrives at the simplicity, one is over-whelmed by almost everyone elses differing simplicities, that the road of sharing seems blocked. Then one must figure a method from this new-found simplicity, to other's simplicity, without over-complicating the process of transfer__This is the massive problem...

[labelwench]

Thank you for the 'triangulation of thought process', Lloyd. Diagrams are a useful tool. Your patience is greatly appreciated.

Because of these differences, epistemic possibility bears on the actual world in ways that subjunctive possibility does not. Suppose, for example, that I want to know whether or not to take an umbrella before I leave. If you tell me "It's possible that it is raining outside"—in the sense of epistemic possibility—then that would weigh on whether or not I take the umbrella. But if you just tell me that "It's possible for it to rain outside"—in the sense of metaphysical possibility—then I am no better off for this bit of modal enlightenment.

A 'snippet' to demonstrate that I am doing at least some of my homework assignments, lol. Time to water horses and shovel snow now, (8 inches overnight!) will check back later.

[leskey]

Here's a little secret: When we know how the entire mind functions, we need not tax our memories so much__As we can then figure all ideas out, on the fly__It's this simple...

I agree, Lloyd.

In the course of my work, a total concept often materializes, fully formed (from the aether ), by just collating all the necessary information available...almost without giving it any perceptable thought.

The main point, is that we waste too much of our brain capacity on habitual behaviour, such as useless cycling and/or oscillation (such as, driving recklessly while pre-occupied about some form of emotional conflict, and not being keenly aware of the continual feed of environmental, sensory input). The main source of this behaviour is the dysfunctional perception of emotional input as a source of motivation, instead of applying current sensory input with known logic to produce ideal, functional, emotional output as a motivational force in the pursuit of improved logic.

It's probably fair to state that the most intelligent are not frequently pre-occupied with or, impeded by, emotional input, though in some, there can be a down-side if their motivations are devoid of any functional emotional output.

This could be contrasted with the intellect of the demographic who after spending much of their leisure time watching innane television programmes based upon drawn out, complex, emotional themes, proceed to act out similar scenarios in their real lives - usually resulting in dysfunctional consequences..

We needn't be who we think we are.

[leskey]

I've just read your post in another thread, Lloyd.

Consciousness is the realization of the quality or attribute of individual being, rather than simply being an individual. When this attribute in realized, motivation from ideal, functional, emotional output results.

We all potentially possess this capacity...just have to edit the inappropriate, extraneous distractions, first...in order to create the necessary space.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Lesley, I also use the word consciousness, but I truly see no emotional or intellectual need for the word, as I truly do see perception as the same container. I was just trying to simplify all the words down to what is absolutely necessary for emotions, personality and intellect, etc., to fully function from. All these ideas exist inside perception. As a matter of fact, we can't even think of anything that exists outside perception(as relates to pure thoughts), because it takes perception to see it first, to even think or talk about it. Even all our exaggerated emotional imaginations and dreams exist inside our fundamental perception. As you say, we can have short-circuits in our perception, I agree, but I sure can't think of anything(thoughtwise) outside perception__can you__truly...?(of course, the physical world, others, and the universe exist outside perception) We may imagine ideas of things outside our perception, but that imagination is still inside our perception, because we see it, feel it, smell it, hear it and or taste it... I know of no other senses, and even throwing in intuition, etc., we only see and feel intuitions inside perception, also... Lucid visions, epiphanies and metaphors all exist inside perception__unless you know of another container...(this is tricky in certain areas of thought, as it only pertains to pure thought, not the outside objective world of reality...)

It's just an area my ideas have led me into. If you'd like to dispute it__Let's talk about it... Can't do any harm to talk...

Do you actually see individual being, any different than being an individual...? What would that difference be__Iff the individual be a good person, in either position you mean...? I just really don't see any... I just think this is the total realization of my complex life's journey__The complex individual has simplified into the simple being of clear perception... Like W.Blake said; 'When the doors of perception are cleansed, man will see things as they truly are...' Do you really see a need for more than truly clear perception...?

I've just read your post in another thread, Lloyd.

Consciousness is the realization of the quality or attribute of individual being, rather than simply being an individual. When this attribute is realized, motivation from ideal, functional, emotional output results.

We all potentially possess this capacity...just have to edit the inappropriate, extraneous distractions, first...in order to create the necessary space.

[Meem]

I am trying to think of a clever or sophisticated way to combine the idea of engineering and entropy. So far, this is what I have ...

If we backwards engineer entropy do we get outropy or atrophy? Should I call this idea entroneering, outroneering, or atroneering? Found a great new local place to eat in Louisville, co. It's called The Huckleberry. Over the door hangs a sign that says, pie fixes everything. I know I might be trying to promote a bit of sillyness, but I just would hate to see people get so serious without a smile. Secondary silliness, "I'll be your huckleberry" is one of the best lines by Doc Holiday in Tombstone.

[leskey]

Using blue type here because I think Robert's playing - lol!

Hi Lesley, I also use the word consciousness, but I truly see no emotional or intellectual need for the word, as I truly do see perception as the same container. I was just trying to simplify all the words down to what is absolutely necessary for emotions, personality and intellect, etc., to fully function from. All these ideas exist inside perception. As a matter of fact, we can't even think of anything that exists outside perception(as relates to pure thoughts), because it takes perception to see it first, to even think or talk about it. Even all our exaggerated emotional imaginations and dreams exist inside our fundamental perception. As you say, we can have short-circuits in our perception, I agree, but I sure can't think of anything(thoughtwise) outside perception__can you__truly...?(of course, the physical world, others, and the universe exist outside perception) We may imagine ideas of things outside our perception, but that imagination is still inside our perception, because we see it, feel it, smell it, hear it and or taste it...

Pausing here: ...and we bring our imagination to fruition. We create not only our psychological, but also physical, realities. We have the capacity to alter the course of our individual and shared continua...

I know of no other senses, and even throwing in intuition, etc., we only see and feel intuitions inside perception, also... Lucid visions, epiphanies and metaphors all exist inside perception__unless you know of another container...(this is tricky in certain areas of thought, as it only pertains to pure thought, not the outside objective world of reality...)

I'm no expert, Lloyd, but intuition is a predictive tool, the product of sensory awareness and memory - it requires no thought.

It's just an area my ideas have led me into. If you'd like to dispute it__Let's talk about it... Can't do any harm to talk...

It's enjoyable to debate/dispute/discuss...hope I'm up to the task .

Do you actually see individual being, any different than being an individual...? What would that difference be__Iff the individual be a good person, in either position you mean...? I just really don't see any... I just think this is the total realization of my complex life's journey__The complex individual has simplified into the simple being of clear perception... Like W.Blake said; 'When the doors of perception are cleansed, man will see things as they truly are...' Do you really see a need for more than truly clear perception...?

Being an individual is standing apart from the whole. Individual being is acknowledging your role and responsibility as part of the whole. Don't you think we've had too much of the former?

IMO, while humans live and breathe, the things that just arrive unbidden (epiphanies, intuition, etc) can only be attributed to consciousness.

[austintorn@aol.com]

IMO, while humans live and breathe, the things that just arrive unbidden (epiphanies, intuition, etc) can only be attributed to consciousness. — Leskey

They appear in consciousness, not from it. Consciousness could also be called the mind’s eye or perception. Thoughts can be unbidden, coming out of the blue, so to speak, because what we call the ‘will’ acts at the subconscious level. Only when thoughts surface on the mind do they become fully known. We are not always privy to what analysis goes on beneath, in the brain. We can be surprised, in general, by thoughts arriving, and even more so if they are forbidden thoughts, which are quickly banished by some other part of the brain. The trick is to apply some insight onto the less obvious cases of what may be spurious thoughts. It is often that simply because we thought of them that we might give them absolute credibility without much pause.

(Note: mind, self and all those kinds of words are just a focus; all is brain.)

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Been trying to get back to this post since yesterday. Let me see if I can sort my ideas out, and not be too offensive to my better half...

Using blue type here because I think Robert's playing - lol!


Pausing here: ...and we bring our imagination to fruition. We create not only our psychological, but also physical, realities. We have the capacity to alter the course of our individual and shared continua...

Yes, I totally agree with this perspective... All our imaginations are very important in the total process, of all assessments of our many realities__No contest...

I'm no expert, Lloyd, but intuition is a predictive tool, the product of sensory awareness and memory - it requires no thought.

Though intuition requires no thought, which I agree with you about, as it comes on us just as concepts come on us, but being a man, and differentiating a bit from the standard flow of intuitions coming on us, they can also be analyzed before action is taken, which is what I as a man usually do. I find premonitions and intuitions very valuable, at times, yet at other times, I find them super-fluous. I usually question everything, including my premonitions and intuitions, and when doing so, am always thinking about them within perception__The only method I know of, I have to process premonitions and intuitions. This is just a habit of my extreme skepticism of all new or old ideas. I think it a very valuable tool to access what may be a wrong impression, until thoroughly analyzed. Other times, I act instantly on my intuitions and instincts, as they've greatly contributed to not only my own safety and life, but my family's as well. My point being, all thoughts and non-thought ideas should be parsed, if possible, by our sensible abilities, before taking actions... I just think this a good policy for both right and left brain mechanics...

It's enjoyable to debate/dispute/discuss...hope I'm up to the task .




Being an individual is standing apart from the whole. Individual being is acknowledging your role and responsibility as part of the whole. Don't you think we've had too much of the former?

Stated as you have stated it, I agree you are stating something very valid__but I do not view it the same way. As I've mentioned many times in many threads and posts, I see the whole life process as 'Transc(i)ndence' and not as 'Transc(e)ndence'. By this I simply mean analyzing the brain/mind/perception of the world and self as deeply as possible__Then one is able to hold all sides of self, within self-perception__for severe critical analysis/es. I think this a far more important process of analysis/es than trying to transcend our past selves/selfs, when in fact we never do__as the old demons always have a way of rising to the top again. If on the other hand, we realize they always will, and by keeping them in our perceptual window, we can more easily recognize the true from the false, the good from the bad. That's just my way of doing it__Of course everyone's different, but I find this works best for me, as instant analysis/es is always readily available to my senses... I always carry the latter and former selves/selfs__Front and center stage, in my memories and perceptions of__Almost all the time, especially when analyzing any situation that requires deep thought... If that makes sense or not__So-Be_It... SBI...

IMO, while humans live and breathe, the things that just arrive unbidden (epiphanies, intuition, etc) can only be attributed to consciousness.

Lesley, I have no contention with your wish to call it consciousness, as that's what you are comfortable calling it. I just try to see the world and self as simply as is humanly possible, to avoid the unnecessary clutter__It works best for me. By myself reducing everything of brain/mind to perception and its contents, and that being well within the scientific medical community's investigations of what we do know of these ideas, I'm able to post everything I think, and is passively thought for me, by my sub-conscious and un-conscious brain states, with all the comforts in the world__within the less complex engine of perception and perceptual memories. I just simply see no need for further complications of the brain states' mechanics...

Though it may seem crude to the right brain states of consciousness learning of intuitions, premonitions, etc., we have no scientific evidence of a separate consciousness state, from that of what perception is capable of, all by itself. I see the premonitions, epiphanies, intuitions, lucid visions and all other, what you may see as consciousness, as the passive and active states of nature functioning deep within and below our perception states__and not something above our perception states. I've posted much about this earlier in this thread, and some in My Philosophy thread__I simply see the natural flow of em-photon-waves taking frequency pictures, entering our brains, some actively viewed by direct perception, while most is passivly deposited past our active viewing perception, and stored passively in our many memory storage areas. To me, the example is clear, just think about how much you miss in the course of a day, in what you honestly self-reflect into perception and memory, compared to what slips right on by. Just try recalling everything you saw yesterday, in extreme detail. When one does this in comparison to another person who was present seeing the same scenery, you'll quickly realize you saw two different world views. Each sees something different, and memory stores something different. Imo, this makes up the vast amount of data stored in our memory states, and sub and un-conscious actions of all our brain's memory storage states, and perception/essence and it's agents function at the unseen and unknown levels to self-process this information, just as dreams function, but on another perception level that produces premonitions, intuitions, epiphanies, lucid visions and all these things many consider mysterious consciousness__which I simply see as passive nature at her natural and normal physical functions' actions...

To me, there's no mystery to the brain's/mind's/perception mechanics__whether seen or unseen. This is just the simple uncertainty of total knowledge actions' principle at work__But all functioning within our very normal overall brain mechanics... I'm far from being alone in these views, as the science of mind has made great advances over the last couple of decades, in understanding the functions of the brain. Yes, there are areas we can not prove of what I've stated, but a simple functional logic does show this mechanics path__especially when the required necessities of information preservation paths are truly scientifically considered, by the necessities of Quantum Physics path preservations of informations involved...

That's my take on it... Your turn...

Premonitions = Pre-cognitions...

This is an example of pre-cognitive arithmetic:
The Triadic Maxim___Any Idea; “Arithmetically check all possible effects, against all possible premises, and the combined results will be the total actions of the idea.”
The architect builds a building on paper from basic arithmetic__The plans complete a real future building. Imo, this is a real world example of pre-cognitive arithmetic at work__The future ideal vision is present...

[leskey]

This post was too long and is consequently the quotes were abridged...and, even then, it had to be posted in two parts:

Though intuition requires no thought, which I agree with you about, as it comes on us just as concepts come on us, but being a man, and differentiating a bit from the standard flow of intuitions coming on us, they can also be analyzed before action is taken, which is what I as a man usually do. I find premonitions and intuitions very valuable, at times, yet at other times, I find them super-fluous.

You've raised a very good point here, Lloyd.

It's a well-known fact that males are prone to focus on a single task in a highly analytical fashion - so you're true to gender, Lloyd. Females, on the other hand, are definitely multi-taskers AND are considered the most intuitive.

Consider the example of a mother of young children and her frame of mind as she draws on the quality of love to perform the duty of service to her children. As she deals with the stresses involved in meeting the needs and demands of her family, while maintaining constant vigilence over them, it's unlikely she could indulge in any in-depth analysis.

I've also noticed this mult-tasking/intuitive trait in women I've encountered in the workplace...as well as myself, of course.

Stated as you have stated it, I agree you are stating something very valid__but I do not view it the same way. As I've mentioned many times in many threads and posts, I see the whole life process as 'Transc(i)ndence' and not as 'Transc(e)ndence'. By this I simply mean analyzing the brain/mind/perception of the world and self as deeply as possible__Then one is able to hold all sides of self, within self-perception__for severe critical analysis/es. I think this a far more important process of analysis/es than trying to transcend our past selves/selfs, when in fact we never do__as the old demons always have a way of rising to the top again.

If the aim is for society and/or humanity as a whole isto recognize its past failures and to aspire to better, then transcendence is the correct term, IMO...and, it begins with the individual.

Lesley, I have no contention with your wish to call it consciousness, as that's what you are comfortable calling it. I just try to see the world and self as simply as is humanly possible, to avoid the unnecessary clutter__It works best for me. By myself reducing everything of brain/mind to perception and its contents, and that being well within the scientific medical community's investigations of what we do know of these ideas, I'm able to post everything I think, and is passively thought for me, by my sub-conscious and un-conscious brain states, with all the comforts in the world__within the less complex engine of perception and perceptual memories. I just simply see no need for further complications of the brain states' mechanics...

The scientific medical community makes it complex...don't get me wrong, I think until all is understood correctly, there is probably no other way. It's like convoluted ancient legends explaining phenomena beyond the ken of humanity at the time...when the mystery is gone, it all seems so simple. But for now, a great deal of mystery remains...

I simply see the natural flow of em-photon-waves taking frequency pictures, entering our brains, some actively viewed by direct perception, while most is passivly deposited past our active viewing perception, and stored passively in our many memory storage areas. To me, the example is clear, just think about how much you miss in the course of a day, in what you honestly self-reflect into perception and memory, compared to what slips right on by. Just try recalling everything you saw yesterday, in extreme detail. When one does this in comparison to another person who was present seeing the same scenery, you'll quickly realize you saw two different world views. Each sees something different, and memory stores something different.

The importance of the individual to the whole has been borne home to me in recent months due to the untimely loss of two close friends in tragic circumstances. In one instance, I enjoyed the particular friend's company just days before he was killed. It was at a family celebration and we were reminiscing about past events...he had entirely different memories to my own and vice-versa - on every level. As we laughed incredulously and continued to talk, others joined in and gave their versions of some of the events...all different in many respects!

I drew upon this as I gave the eulogy days later. We aren't who we think we are, rather we convey meaning to everyone we encounter, especially those closest to us because they each hold a piece of our own jig-saw puzzle that's written in time...like it or not, we leave our indelible signs along the way...semiosis.

CONTINUED...