East Meets West Logic...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The only problem is Sb, we've had a world that's already tried that, and we know it doesn't work, nor can it work__in the world as thus far financially evolved. My daughter took a look at all my economic system charts one day, and immediately recognized its expressive values and truths, but upon looking closer she noticed I'd shown the most perfect state possible with corporations still having slightly more rights and money than the people, even in what I'd relayed as the fairest state possible.

She then asked why I'd represented the best ordered state as such, and I simply said, even as bad as we may dislike certain actions of the most powerful, they must have more to pay us a middle way fair wage. If not, what would be their incentive to build the businesses that employ most of us. She, recognizing the dynamics said, Ohhhh. All have to be fair and recognize the necessities of all, including the necessities of building much more fair law systems, than we now have. It's a rather serious affair...

I wish it were as easy as one wage, but Mao proved that impossibility long ago. Now, that doesn't mean we can't work to improve systems to the point that one day, we can do away with money systems, but reality requires a transition system of sensible laws to arrive there, without us all killing each other, in the process. So, it's more complex than simplicity, yet no where's near as complex as our academic and financial communities have mistakenly made it.

The problem SB is the adrenalized fear state of all humanity, and it's getting worse, the faster, faster, faster we go...rrr


p.s.
You may have faith in the human condition improving. I have zero faith in the human condition improving. Even the most enlightened Zen Buddhists estimate that only about 1 to 3% of the world has ever been enlightened, at any one time, and none expect the numbers to improve. Adrenalized fear is immune to change without force, and I don't mean violent force, per say, but a large enough group of people demanding the unfair laws be changed, to the fair and much more equitable laws, but that means everyone wanting change must agree on a feasible system of laws first, and that even seems near impossible to even me, but law change only takes a very small % of the society to accomplish just that...

All that I'd add is that it's important that people realise the one problem which has plagued mankind over our entire history -
- how selfish behaviour is hardwired in and how only through opening one's mind to reality is the knowledge to inform one's own behaviour away from inadvertent abuse of one's equally worthy neighbour attained.

The only form of abuse which worries me (since the others will fall away) - is the abuse which occurs inadvertently -
- through people not particularly knowing

- not knowing the consequences of their actions.

Difficult to imagine a world in which we can all know all of every aspect of the things people do.

The nifty workaround to this problem would be to offer all people the same wage in a global currency -
and then to know that the choice which remains
(after the dust has settled)
reflects
the labours of willing participants -
- no more people charging far too much for far too little (politicians, lawyers, bankers and their corporate robomannequin buds)
- no more people being forced to pull 24/7s just to make ends meet.

That's just not fair.

[SB_UK]

~

Finding it surprisingly difficult to reply.

Just not so sure that the current system can be salvaged without major rearrangement.

People appear to believe that it's gonna' to be life as usual -
are waiting for the recovery to ... ...
- just won't happen though, will it?

An example of the idiocy of man -
- to run straight into the arms of famine as we shift agriculture away from food and into bio-fuel ... ... ...

- my honest feeling is that the oil economy
- the corruption in society which the oil industry has brought
- that the oil economy is about to be drawn to an end -

- and that these weak attempts at extending the life of the car for a little while longer are simply the desperate flailings of a dying (once all powerful) industry.

The entire axis of power evens without oil.

My point is that we appear to be getting ourselves into ever more dangerous water by trying to come up with ad hoc solutions driven by vested interests

- ad hoc solutions are no longer necessary in a world with ToE -

ToE confers the wherewithal to shape stable architectures -
- to define proper solutions to the problems we face.

Can't see us missing cars much
- can see us missing food -
- at least based on current needs.

I believe that we're (our species) waking up to the realistion that the automobile doesn't give us the freedom which the adverts which sell these products seek to mislead.

Next on the list, after dismantling the oil, gas and nasty plastic industries
will be a similarly concerted attack upon the
added {sugar, salt, fat} processed food industry
followed by
- an end to private banks and to national legal systems
accompanied by
an end to the need for health care, dentists, gyms ... ... ...

- and all of this as just the start ... ... ...
- the whole 'lot' due to come a-crashing down

and we'll be better for it

... ... ... and ... ... ...

so ... ... ...

... ... all things considered,
I'm wondering whether we shouldn't just start again ,
rather than attempting to re-jig things around.

Our goal is to get to the best solution as quickly as is possible -
- I'd go along with whichever route people considered it best to take.

One~wage appeals -
- perhaps one~wage where the corporate entity is allowed to have a larger stock of money
- but only to do 'stuff' for people (all people)
and
strictly not to be transferred down to its workers as 'incentives'
- financial incentives have a way of turning sour as we're witnessing in the bonus payouts which're continuing to be paid to failure bankers.

Their lawyer friends promising the bankers that their contracts are unbreakable; lawyers chasing the money (exactly as per usual).

Huge problem we have here -
- and as Rowan Williams described
- the oldest story known to man

- the story of 'original sin' and of how 'original sin' destroys the best efforts of man to generate something of worth for himself and his fellow man, equally.

The 'love' which Jesus describes rather springs to mind .

[leskey]

Hi, Lloyd.

I hope you don't mind if I come along for the ride...I think my investigations are strangely paralleling your observations in this thread - can you believe it???

__in the world as thus far financially evolved.

Financial evolution may have only been the vehicle for scientific evolution...one that is now close to becoming extinct/dispensible. We are quickly arriving at the point where (thanks to the many) interdisciplinary understanding of processes is completing our understanding of 'what is'...enlightenment (and unification toward a common goal)!

The problem SB is the adrenalized fear state of all humanity, and it's getting worse, the faster, faster, faster we go...

Problems are only challenges to find a solution: progress...with enlightenmnet, fear and the need for money disappates...into the aether...

p.s.
...Even the most enlightened Zen Buddhists estimate that only about 1 to 3% of the world has ever been enlightened, at any one time, and none expect the numbers to improve.

Yeah, but...maybe, that was before the internet....



Life IS music.

You may be aware that an analogy for polypeptide sythesis is sound produced by a tape recorder. This lead me to ponder sonoluminescence. It's the '...escence' (state or process of becoming) that is intriging...

Compliments of Wiki:



From left to right: apparition of bubble, slow expansion, quick and sudden contraction, emission of light



Phase space of a dynamical system with focal stability.

In mathematics and physics, a phase space...is a space in which all possible states of a system are represented, with each possible state of the system corresponding to one unique point in the phase space.

A phase space may contain very many dimensions. For instance, a gas containing many molecules may require a separate dimension for each particle's x, y and z positions and velocities as well as any number of other properties.


A typical phase diagram. The dotted line gives the anomalous behavior of water. The green lines mark the freezing point and the blue line the boiling point, showing how they vary with pressure.

The loop is always a spiral because it remains open to the probability of other influences, ie change.

Has it been considered that dark matter might be magnetic storage traps of ultra cold neutrons?

[Mikal]

I'm wondering whether we shouldn't just start again ,
rather than attempting to re-jig things around.......Quote by SB....

Interesting statement SB..."just start again"...the meaning of what through history has been called the end of the world...or the end of how we knew the world...

Has a connect to that part of us called the Oversoul...the part that either manifests the state of a society and civilization or the part that through evolution sees the need to destroy the existing state....I think evolution is necessary to swing between the two extremes because in manifesting the state, one does not so readily see what is really being produced in that state and of course evolution provides greater heights of perception that allow the actual seeing and understanding of the state which we are now destroying.....

Regards Mikal

[leskey]

Has it been considered that dark matter might be magnetic storage traps of ultra cold neutrons?

This question popped into my head as a result of other reading...of course, you should never ask a question without 'googling' it first! Yes, it's been considered...still reading...

[Mikal]

The only problem is Sb, we've had a world that's already tried that, and we know it doesn't work, nor can it work__in the world as thus far financially evolved. My daughter took a look at all my economic system charts one day, and immediately recognized its expressive values and truths, but upon looking closer she noticed I'd shown the most perfect state possible with corporations still having slightly more rights and money than the people, even in what I'd relayed as the fairest state possible.

She then asked why I'd represented the best ordered state as such, and I simply said, even as bad as we may dislike certain actions of the most powerful, they must have more to pay us a middle way fair wage. If not, what would be their incentive to build the businesses that employ most of us. She, recognizing the dynamics said, Ohhhh. All have to be fair and recognize the necessities of all, including the necessities of building much more fair law systems, than we now have. It's a rather serious affair...

I wish it were as easy as one wage, but Mao proved that impossibility long ago. Now, that doesn't mean we can't work to improve systems to the point that one day, we can do away with money systems, but reality requires a transition system of sensible laws to arrive there, without us all killing each other, in the process. So, it's more complex than simplicity, yet no where's near as complex as our academic and financial communities have mistakenly made it.

The problem SB is the adrenalized fear state of all humanity, and it's getting worse, the faster, faster, faster we go...rrr


p.s.
You may have faith in the human condition improving. I have zero faith in the human condition improving. Even the most enlightened Zen Buddhists estimate that only about 1 to 3% of the world has ever been enlightened, at any one time, and none expect the numbers to improve. Adrenalized fear is immune to change without force, and I don't mean violent force, per say, but a large enough group of people demanding the unfair laws be changed, to the fair and much more equitable laws, but that means everyone wanting change must agree on a feasible system of laws first, and that even seems near impossible to even me, but law change only takes a very small % of the society to accomplish just that...

Hi Lloyd...how can corporations be the best ordered state?? Corporatism is Globalism....
corporatism is the foundation of fascism, slavery, constant consumerism, the creation of enslavement to debt and non-stop merging and immersion into materialism as the only important thing in life...

I agree one-wage is not the answer and is socialism.

I agree actual enlightenment is evolutionary and rare on the highest levels but as we seem to be evolving into our own social sense then enlightenment may be on a lower level simply grasping understanding of the more powerful forces like economics which push and pull us through our lives...

Transition is complicated because we are now realizing that many laws have been legislated without the consensus of the public body....if you get caught in a social situation that requires good, fair and equitable laws to support your need and then realize a law was legislated against that well its a situation of being crushed into having your back against a wall....takes alot of legwork and mindwork to get out of that position...

I have faith that not all of us are pushed by the adrenaline of fear...some are pushed by good common sense and others have turned fear into courage and strength. I do believe we can persevere through change!

Regards Mikal

[SB_UK]

I agree [with Lloyd that] one-wage is not the answer and is socialism.

are we sure that money is worth losing this much sleep over ?

- however if one~wage it isn't then no wage it is.

Sounds good to me -
A society of wise clergymen -

- though one wonders whether the transition from only to no token of exchange is going to be possible overnight.

~*~

Law, politics and money need to become agents of unity and not division.

One open and fully distributed legal, political and currency system are approaching -
- just think that it'd be nice (icing on the cake) to allay people's fears by guaranteeing their capacity to purchase survival critical items for life.

No more fear.

~*~

Perhaps it'd be best to examine the division of wealth and to ask whether those who have most are contributing concomitantly more.

If a person has twice as much money than another -
shouldn't they be expected to contribute twice as much to community.

Currently it feels as though twice as much money merely makes it easier for the individual to acquire three times as much money -
- and so it continues ... ... ...

~*~

The middle way needs to be the most efficient approach (right wing) to delivering fun to all people (left wing).

~*~

Right wing and Left wing politics require one another.
Extremism is the enemy.
Presumably why centrist parties appear to be gaining control in most regions.

~*~

The one point I'd like to make in this post is simply to highlight the remarkable weight which our society has placed in money.
In money over quality of life.
In money because of no capacity to assess quality of life.

~*~

ToE brings the capacity to identify direction
- direction requires that there be no underclass
- underclasses are defined by inequality

- where by far and away the most important parameter of inequality is $worth.

People with far too much money strutting around on TV -
attracting people with lesser minds into emulating their ignorant all-consuming behaviour

- hard for sense to get a look in.

One~wage or N~wage though would force a reassessment of priorities.

No longer considered a success at one's funeral if one's bank balance reads in the black; success assessed instead on whether the individual enjoyed
and in turn
- helped others to enjoy their lives.

Money leads only to wasted lives.

Worth as opposed to worthy
- as political correctness is to morality

-- merely poor acquaintance.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Lloyd...how can corporations be the best ordered state?? Corporatism is Globalism....

corporatism is the foundation of fascism, slavery, constant consumerism, the creation of enslavement to debt and non-stop merging and immersion into materialism as the only important thing in life...

(not spell checked)
Hi Mikal, Leskey and all, and thanks for stopping by as you are all welcome. And Leskey, I also recognized our similar directions of mind, but being new to the site again, I figured I’d see if your interests be perked enough to join us_Thanks.

Now, to answer Mikal’s query as to my statements about corporations. It’s not that I like this position any better than the majority of people on Earth, it’s just the evolutionary reality handed all us awakening webonites, can not be overcome as fast as many would like. Let me just give a simple example/problem with change-too-fast; most all people either own or rent homes_a necessity_This means all such people are already locked into 30+ year mortgages or lifetime rents_i.e._signed contracts already controlling our future actions_next to unchangeable. Next; most all businesses/corporations/govs. have the similar contractual obligations 30+ yrs. into the future. My point is that about 80-90% of the world is already bought and sold(contract wise) to a future many of us do not want__But this fact_we all must face. So, this is a very limiting factual condition on the type of real changes possible. The future contractual obligations, not only of corporations, but most all people's livelihoods as well, are definitely on the line here, in any serious thoughts of social-eco-eco-politico-changes.

Now, don’t get me wrong__change is possible within certain and specific geometric contexts, enabling real benefit to the greater good of society at large_but we must see these simply explained complex realities, and add them to any ideas we are thinking about of real changes possible__Not to destroy the health and safety of our very beings, as culturally evolved systems. And as Leskey has wisely pointed out, and is also a major vision/view of mine, the inter-disciplinary successes of recent are picking up the unification speed far beyond what most are aware of. I’m truly beginning to see academic unifications in many areas of otherwise disparate fields__and ideas within fields being well understood in many areas_as well as the new_since last Sept. `08 crash__a new desire to learn to unite, as we are all trying to do here at ToeQuest. Though I may sound the trumpet of pessimism at times, I also am becoming very optimistic about what I see happening. I on the one hand see it separating, yet on the other hand see it coming together__Only time will tell.

As far as relating more about your statements above Mikal, and which I expressed to my daughter in that last post, it would be due to the future contractual obligations, already in place, that requires us to transitionally evolve through a new and much better balanced form of corporate capitalism_as bad as globalism and excess consumerism are_than to bring the whole house of cards down around our necks, which may happen anyway, by trying to jump capitalism further and faster than is possible to mechanically/functionally take place__That land of danger of ‘Change Too Fast’ is real__Many nations have tried that in the past, and look what happened. But within, the system is malleable to__by sensible standards__massive middle road changes. One must realize that most all arguments are taking place between two extreme sides of all issues__And no-one’s advocating for the true, and almost invisible, middle position, which is my position. No-one on the international scene, web or anywhere I know of has actually drawn up a detailed middle way ‘capitalist’ path since J.M.Keynes way back in the `20’s and `30’s__Every political party, in every nation, has simply been arguing against the extreme opposites, leaving the argument ‘For’ any middle path_completely in a void__No-Body Home…! That’s the place we all need stand, and fight to design and implement new and feasible middle-way systems.

I will be getting to that middle-way geometric structured system later, but for now lots of the fundamental questions must be talked and answered. SB has posed many over on Labelwench’s thread… Just as a final note on your concerns above__many of your fears can be eliminated if we evolve the true middle-way possibility, to whittle the corporate dragon down to sensibly functioning standards, and more sharing of their resources for individuals and the common good, while taking better care of the Global Commons…

I have faith that not all of us are pushed by the adrenaline of fear...some are pushed by good common sense and others have turned fear into courage and strength. I do believe we can persevere through change!

And I agree with these above statements completely, and not to make this post any longer for now, I end here with a big thanks to all participants…rrr

p.s.
Here's where we are: LINK
Here's where we can go: Link

[Mikal]

Hi Lloyd….I think were back to the original argument that its not money that is evil it is the love of money and where it has taken us through the creation of illusionary wealth through easy access to constant debt, credit cards and living on power lines.

I totally agree with you that our reality cannot be overcome with an easy, quick fix.
I did not become involved in this system. I live within my means; I do not do contractual debt. I decided I did not need to live in a mansion when a small, comfortable apartment serves me just fine and prudence has served my life quite well…

I do understand the very big problem of contractual obligations and what that means for the future. I also understand that contractual obligations are now about that broader world; International connects where what happens in one part of the system here affects another part of the system on the other side of the world. We really are sewn into a Capitalist business venture that ceased being an economic phenomenon and through size it became transformed into a social phenomenon.

I do believe we are presently involved in examining the effects of an over-emphasis on consumerism and we are shocked to find ourselves mired in false populism.

Thanks for discussion…..

Regards Mikal

[SB_UK]

.Here's where we are: LINK
Here's where we can go: Link

government <-> corporation
governmen| <-> |corporation
governmenv <-> vcorporation
governmen^ <-.>^
governmen| <-> |
governmenpeople

research...........mass
University......production
academic
government <-> corporation
governmen| <-> |corporation
governmenv <-> vcorporation
governmen^ <-.>^
governmen| <-> |
governmenpeople

The globally collaborative academic network does its research and then hands off production to automation.

People read about the research on one site and get to enjoy the product on the other.

A flat pay structure if pay is necessary.

~*~

The root of all evil might be the 'desire for money' -
though I can't seem to workout how inequality in wealth can be made to work.

Can only be made to work if people are apathetic to money (I guess).

People with a higher wage may not be evil -
- though I can't seem to work out whether that matters.

It's simply inequality (regardless of the morality of the individual or attitude of the individual (with money) to money) which (I think) ... ...
- simply inequality which is our problem (here).

Why?

Because inequality exacerbates greed.

Money can only be made to work if people are apathetic to money (I guess).

When all people are apathetic to money - there will be desire for money
- will be no evil ... ... ...

... ... however I don't think that we can achieve this goal.

Why?

Because we lose the desire for money at state::wisdom.
I'm pretty sure that 'greed' is built in up until then
- is an evolutionary attribute which runs in parallel with finding a mate.

This argument isn't necessarily aimed at the people who have money -
- it's (instead) aimed at the people who are driven into a frenzy of greed to have what those others have and which they do not.

As long as there's greed - inequality in wealth (I think) actually cannot be made to work.

I'm trying and probably failing to explain that the love of money being the root of all evil doesn't necessarily apply here -
- that regardless of whether the person who has money has a positive attitude towards their wealth
that
- it's the inequality alone (amongst people with a necessary evolutionary weakness towards greed)
which
causes society problems.

... ... ... the suggestion then that as long as even a single person is controlled by greed
- that inequality in physical wealth, possessions, stuff on show
will lead to a dysfunctional collective.

~*~

As ever - I have no idea what I'm going on about and so am open to stealing any better ideas which reverse this position.

~*~

money though is really dull stuff; it's the decent fun which it buys that we're actually interested in;

though

with every passing day, I seem to find decent fun in only those 'things' which do not carry a price tag
- are freely available.