East Meets West Logic...

[SB_UK]

- sorry -
... ... trying as hard as I can here to find an alternative to one~wage and failing.

People aren't born bad - turn bad only after being forced to earn a wage and then immersed in a society which echoes only one message
- the more your dollar ... ... ...
- the greater your worth.

I'm just not sure that we can free human spirit from the savage within unless we separate out the ideas of body, mind and spirit (in our own minds)
and
... ... then ... ...
cut the spirit free.

~*~

The spirit cringes at the idea of shifting one's bank account from grey bank 1 to grey bank 2 because of a 0.5% guaranteed increased annual interest rate offered at whatever the name of that second bank was ... ... ...

I

forget.

[labelwench]

Consumerism and economics is pervasive.

Witness the proliferation of the new 'green consumerism'. As the big players have observed there is a growing interest in buying organic and products that are better for people and the planet, they have moved rapidly into the market. In many cases, they are 'greening' their existing products by adding 'organic' ingredients and using recycled packaging.

While this may accrue some small benefit overall, I would suggest that we need far fewer commodities than are presently being offered. Instead, by adding even more choices, are we actually improving the situation or just adding to it?

Then there has emerged a whole new economy of groups and individuals offering books, workshops, conferences, videos and retreats, in order to instruct one in the ways of being a more environmentally friendly member of the global community.

All for a fee, of course.

There are still dedicated individuals who share their knowledge without expectation of finacial renumeration, motivated, in my opinion, by the right reasons, people who live what they preach. A quick search of the web, however, will demonstrate that many are just using these new concepts for personal enrichment.

To my way of thinking, true teachers are those who instruct people in the means of working together for a better common future and benefit to the planet and all beings.

Those who would sell us a 'quick fix', set alarm bells ringing in my mind.

Of course, may be that I have just become a very cynical 'wench from my current position of working 'behind the enemy lines'....

[SB_UK]

~

That's it.

We're not looking at an excuse to make money coloured in green -
- the big change here is towards quality of life.

Quality of life will involve the development of aspects of life which're immune to economic intervention
- which can be done for free -

of course with the proviso that governments have it within their power to charge for all aspects of life if they so wish -

Can politics, economics and law survive in anything resembling their current structure following unification of the world into one?

no
- maybe the terms 'll be retained for convenience -
maybe not.

Religion, science, philosophy, mathematics, art, tech though retained will (similarly) be changed markedly in their structures following proper unification ... ...

I'd argue far less so than in politics, economics and law
- though then again - maybe I'd not bother -

what'd be the point?

toot toot!

and now?

... ... ... All change for Utopia Central.

A Jiggly Beach Volleyball Masterclass is currently in session.

[labelwench]

We're not looking at an excuse to make money coloured in green -
- the big change here is towards quality of life.

Quality of life will involve the development of aspects of life which're immune to economic intervention
- which can be done for free -
Originally posted by SB__UK

Perhaps of some encouragement, is the increasing amount of downloadable free software becoming available on the net, and there are some people offering their teachings without fee. As mentioned in an earlier post, these are the people I have respect for as teachers, as they understand the concept of 'pass it forward', knowing full well, that their efforts shall be returned to them manyfold, while the good that accrues from such simple sharing, moves ever outward, like ripples from a pebble cast into a pond....

Empowering people to allow them to reach their full potential is a reward beyond measure, that the good that one may do, lives on, and becomes embedded in our very genes, to continue the evolution of humankind.

[SB_UK]

All for a fee, of course.

Gaining freedom by throwing off forced dependencies in our future.

The future holds the possibility of life without the need to answer to anybody.

If there's a form of personal transport -
we'll build and look after it ourselves.

Grow, cook and eat food by ourselves.

Cut down the trees which we'll need for fuel and to build our own furniture.

~*~

No more forced dependencies
- especially no more forced dependencies in a global economic system where people are allowed to earn different amounts

- we need to see an end to plumber and car mechanic mentality -

- how proud are people when they find a plumber or car mechanic who they feel they can trust?

One of life's defining moments.

Luckily cars are about to go extinct and my wife tells me that the underground heating systems which're about to become all the rage
use gel and not water -
- hopefully meaning that we'll be able to install the pipes ourselves or with a neighbour's help.

Help by a neighbour followed by ourselves then helping a neighbour to install his system.

[SB_UK]

Perhaps of some encouragement, is the increasing amount of downloadable free software becoming available on the net, and there are some people offering their teachings without fee. As mentioned in an earlier post, these are the people I have respect for as teachers, as they understand the concept of 'pass it forward', knowing full well, that their efforts shall be returned to them manyfold, while the good that accrues from such simple sharing, moves ever outward, like ripples from a pebble cast into a pond....

Empowering people to allow them to reach their full potential is a reward beyond measure, that the good that one may do, lives on, and becomes embedded in our very genes, to continue the evolution of humankind.

Just seen your post -


I didn't copy.

[labelwench]

Gaining freedom by throwing off forced dependencies in our future.

The future holds the possibility of life without the need to answer to anybody.

If there's a form of personal transport -
we'll build and look after it ourselves.

Grow, cook and eat food by ourselves.

Cut down the trees which we'll need for fuel and to build our own furniture.

Originally posted by SB__UK

Ah, SB__UK, I truly wish such were possible, and yet even in a resource rich area as I reside in, there are not enough Moose to feed 30,000 people.

Our river Salmon fishery has had quotas on for more than a decade, and some years no harvest has been allowed, as the returning numbers are too few.

Dawson City, home of the Klondike Gold Rush, was stripped of all nearby timber years ago, to fuel the Paddlewheelers and for heating people's homes. We could not burn wood only for too many years, even with the present population, as trees grow very slowly during our short summers.

Everything must remain in the proper ratio for balance, and the pendulum swings constantly, favoring some plants and species one year, and others in the years that follow.

Our species is now becoming much like a plague of locusts, although some who live in more favored regions and countries, may not consider it to be so.

We must find renewable energy sources that are not harmful to the planet. In every way, we must become more considerate, and more efficient, except perhaps, on the global scale, in reproducing our own kind....

Methinks we have done quite enough already...

Here is a song in tribute of a dying way of life, Fiddler's Green.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5q0H...eature=related

[leskey]

Perhaps we need to push economics to one side and to (instead) develop 'harmless' outlets for human greed.

e-Software, e-music, e-book collecting -
all purely electronic (for instance)

- the individual splurging their greed out (until they themselves get better) on items which are purely virtual.

Collecting information is my point here.

~*~

I think this mechanism could work

(actually)

will
work.

~*~

Greed need not necessarily focus upon a limiting physical resource -
as much information as one desires -
a potentially infinite resource

... ... where ... ...


refs: RDF : Random Blink and ADDF : DBReynolds

~*~

An acceptance of the very real existence of and the need to satisfy human greed
(in a community friendly manner)
may
be all that we need.

Forcing any unwanted regime on people simply represses, does not allow the individual to engorge themselves to the point of reaching a state of satiety where a 'wafer thin mint' is able to change {their,our} lives forever -

change our lives forever
though nicely -
and not with direct analogy to Mr. Creosote.

Mr. Creosote applies only if we fail in retargeting human greed away from the physical realm and onto the virtual.

~*~

It'll work - promise.

Sorry, I'm lagging behind...on-going (but, hopefully, soon to be rectified) technical difficulties with the fibre optic installation.

Does encouraging any potentially damaging mindset, without real consequences, ever teach us anything? It's the 'damage' experience that imprints avoidance. We don't even learn from history because it's taught in at a distance, rather than related to current aspects of the perpetual human conditon.

Going back a little further in this thread and to underscore something Steve mentioned, all institutions must be under the auspice of the people, in order to attract candidates who understand their duty to serve the people, for the benefit of the people.

[SteveA]

Sorry, I'm lagging behind...on-going (but, hopefully, soon to be rectified) technical difficulties with the fibre optic installation.

Does encouraging any potentially damaging mindset, without real consequences, ever teach us anything? It's the 'damage' experience that imprints avoidance. We don't even learn from history because it's taught in at a distance, rather than related to current aspects of the perpetual human conditon.

Going back a little further in this thread and to underscore something Steve mentioned, all institutions must be under the auspice of the people, in order to attract candidates who understand their duty to serve the people, for the benefit of the people.

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I think everyone, by defaul is born free and a society shouldn't consider someone indebted to supporting it (that's almost like the idea of an original sin) without some very forthright, non-deceptive, non-fraudulent agreements or commitments made between people.

The default should be a right to disassociate and it should be the natural benefit perceived by everyone in a group that retains the structure and protects it.

Of course there are always grey areas and that's just the ideal. The reality is that some democratic pressures will inevitably override individual desires, but that's something to limit and avoid as much as possible (for example, having a mere 50% majority vote means that 49% of people on some issue could be on the "losing" side ... well if almost half the people in some area disagreed with someone then there's a big problem in assuming it should apply to everyone. If we had laws only enforceable with a supermajority vote, then the laws would tend to be only those things that most everyone agreed upon. Local cities or communities etc. can be used to add in whatever other details they want as it's easier to get larger percent majorities on smaller scales.

For example, in San Francisco it might not be that hard to get 80% of the people in the city to want citywide laws giving priveledges to gay marriages also, whereas in Utah they might be able to get 80% of the people to agree on having no public drinking or smoking. In Las Vegas they might get 80% of the people allow marajuana.

I think at some point democratic pressures need to "vent" and if you really happen to be in the wrong area, it might be worth looking at moving elsewhere either that or just adapt to things locally, but ideally you can have a broader spectrum of lifestyles and for example, parents with children might prefer to not live in Vegas and instead might prefer some place more compatible with raising a family and similarly, people who want to cruise the streets till 2AM and party should have the option of Vegas ... basically, most the political conflicts we see today are just artificial creations from false beliefs that democratic forces should dominate a society and once that mistaken belief is removed and replaced with a greater tolerance and respect for the liberty of others then a much more peaceful and economically and socially prosperous society arises and its bonds are ironically stronger than trying to force people together because in one case they're all attracted to sustaining the freedom they have whereas in the other case they're constantly pushing against the system (and this costs in many ways both emotionally as well as in terms of manpower for enforcement and the levels of government resources needed).

Now what will happen if such a scenario occurs? Well there will likely be many people that will find the ideals they've been taught or believed should work for government are lacking and that reality requires a larger view, but this is simply a natural part of learning and you can't force someone to believe as you do and if people are forced to act some specific manner against their beliefs or desires, then noone's learning anything except how to comply with dominance and if that domination is broken, then things can be seen as temporarily worse but that's part of how things heal - the damage was already being done under the domination, but it's social/cultural damage that accumulates with interest over time.

The question is whether or not people have what it takes to actually life quite freely without restrain. I think it's not nearly as difficult as many appear to believe but yes, it will include some skinned knees and bruises learning, but in the end we're just going to continue to have itches until peoiple learn how to get along well and that doesn't mean everyone has to agree or live similarly but simply that people focus more on their own life and social interactions and spend less time trying to determine what happens in places that aren't really a part of ones interests (that's for other people to work out).

(I have a lot of suggestions on many changes to laws or government that would make things simpler, place more of an innocent until proven untrustworthy view on things and lots of ways to limit conflicts, but my intent is not to really try to say what a specific community could look like, but instead just to emphasize the common system under which most every type of person, culture or belief system can peacefully coexist - the specifically places or circumstances preferred by individuals within such a system would likely vary).

To me it seems very simple, natural, flexible and dynamic - for example, if you want to nude sunbath in your backyard and none of the neighbors mind then it's really noone elses business (it's their own fault if they're trying to peek in) or similarly if someone wants to turn the front of their home into a used book store and once again none of the neighbors mind, then you shouldn't need to ask permission from a city or pay permits etc. to do it. It's just simple free common sense and we need to learn that again and I think given 20 years of life like that things would be much more diverse and likely stop the pressure toward a cookie cutter view of life or bipartisan views ... why not tripartisan or better yet - nonpartisan.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi all, and thanks for all your brain-storming contributions... Today I visited a Mexican-Jewish friend of mine for a long discussion about the same issues being tossed back and forth here. We went over all the problems between the spirit's intuitional capacities and incapacities, in relations to the rabid law structures in place, verses the geometric self-symmetries we truly need. We were in complete agreement that the voracious corporations have, through the WTO, created a virtual state monopoly over our once dynamic constitutions, and that this is the central problem freezing out all our spiritual and intuitive desires.

So, what's to truly be done__Do we all just sit back and let these bohemoth monsters continue to freeze us further into the modern Dark Ages, or do we decide to fight back_seriously and intelligently fight back__and try to regain some sovereignty over our local law systems?, thus in turn freeing our spirits from this self-allowed evolution, and recover a bit of dignity, we once possessed, before the radical right re-worded our entire language systems, beyond all recognition of spiritual intelligence's rightful understandings...?

Isn't it a fundamental spiritual value to try and reconnect the profound common sensical, moral geometrically symmetric values, back into this distraught system? If everyone chooses to let the show continue un-abated, we'll all be paying $$$100 for a single hot-dog, because the completely out-of-control grinch corporations are, at this very moment, self-writing off-shore virtual state law agreements, amongst themselves, and factoring all these future damaging paths with their foolish frequency complexity maths__and I kid you not...! Most of them haven't learned a thing from last Sept. `08. If you think they have just start following the Wall St. Journal or Barrons' Financial rags.

Remember Neil Young__"The wooden boats was just a hippi dream..." The 'Grinch of Greed' has self-legalized itself to be God__We need fight for the Best Geometric Symmetry Possible, to end this Corporate-God status. Just look around and ask yourself__What path should we follow...? My advice is to follow 'Mother Nature'__Nature's fundamental symmetry__She builds no armies_she takes only what she needs_she replenishes herself__Quite a simple model. Now look at the greater Universe__Another example of the continuing symmetry of the Galaxies__Now, look at what both have in common__Mathematics of a desirable spiritual symmetry... Don't you think we could all follow her example if enough minds are tuned to the central symmetrical geometry of the Universe and Mother Nature's self-endowed infinite mathematics of motions and spirits...?rrr


p.s.
The central 'Middle-Way' path is mathematizing morality back into its given geometrical symmetry's natural goal, satisfying all's given good intuitions__but the good must eliminate the bad, or the bad will forever rule the good__That's just an old fact from antiquity...