East Meets West Logic...

[SB_UK]

:: Lloyd ::

Good post - if we can though (simply) shift the idea of fighting off repression into explaining 'why repression?'
then we will end up with a buncha' evil repre$$ants slapping their foreheads puctuated by dismayed 'well I nevers!'

- the problem is that we can't behave like a system unless we understand the system.
We're a part of the system which we're seeking to understand.

The mind has a developmental path representing at its simplest level the actual conformational transition from immature (caterpillar) to mature mind (butterfly)

- with maturity of mind (butterfly) comes wisdom



- repetitive motifs (ref. telly last night 'the sky at night')
giving us deep understanding (belief) in the geometric regularity of (our) nature (reality)
- in our own context within reality
- in and of ourselves.

- with maturity of mind (butterfly) comes wisdom
- a state in which the individual needs to do the right thing for people first -
for people (all people)

under the newfound frame of mind of unshakeable understanding that what's best for people (all people) is best for the individual.

[SB_UK]

:: Mikal ::

United we stand...divided we fall. Truer words were never spoken...

exactly

... ... under the newfound frame of mind of unshakeable understanding that what's best for people (all people) is

really very much so for the

best for the individual.

[SB_UK]

~post~
3 13

Summary

There appears to be complete agreement in all posts above
- perhaps in all posts which I've ever read

... ... all that we require is scientifically backed (sensible) insight into our own mind
- an insight which comes from development of a single consistent logical model which encompasses all aspects of reality which are immune from human intervention.

So - abstract man out from the Universe (in a thought experiment) -
develop a model which explains away all aspects of reality

- all aspects of reality which we know to exist prior to the development of the human mind (observer).

Examples

what is oxygen?
what's a bar magnet?
why was life seeded?
what existed prior to the Big Bang?

- no requirement for provability
~s~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Islamic philosophy
ref. Lloyd Gillespie's reference of In Sina / Avicenna's introduction of inductive logics almost exactly 1000 years ago

(good stuff)

- sole requirement for the model to make sense
- and to withstand empirical scrutiny in all of those aspects of the model which're open to empirical scrutiny.

So ... ... ... an interconnected model which may be drawn in two colours -
grey and black -
Grey and Black making associative sense -
black more formally empirically provably so.

Grey - a suggestion of what existed pre Big Bang
- a very real question which we may answer though forever unprovably.

A model though which is consistent with everything we know to be true from investigations which are possible within our structure Universe of action.

The model for whatever existed prior to the Big Bang must be compatible with everything we see around us today.

What do we need ?
we need an autonomously regulated mechanism for a sand timer to turn
- and then a mechanism for evolution (autonomous geometric series) to be driven within the previously empty now filling lower chamber of the sand timer.

Association between the sand timer and the biblical 'eye of the needle' -
the mechanism of the black hole
- the black hole reflecting the basic mechanism (at a level which the human eye can observe)

- the basic mechanism of all structures within (and outside of our) reality.

The eversion as the autonomous procedure by which the sand timer turns.

eversion

I'd never heard of the geometric process of eversion prior to being taught of its existence on ADD forums.

The Holy grail is a depiction of the geometry of eversion.

The autonomously regulate switch from

\_~_/
\\_/.... energy moves from upper to lower chamber
|||
//_\
/\\\\

to

\__//
\\_/
|||
//_\
/\~\\ ...chambers reversing as the upper chamber empties

{{{recursion}}}n

\_~_/
\\_/.... energy moving from upper to lower chamber once more
|||
//_\
/\\\\


>-<







- slinky eversion turning itself inside out (like a glove) in the process of transformation


\\
///
...................................../((

- the basis to 'bilateria'
- that slightly off not quite 2d/3d symmetry which characterizes reality (particularly evident when we look in the mirror)
- the 'off-white' symmetry which those with particularly gifted eyes have been able to observe.



~*~

So - abstract man out from the Universe (in a thought experiment) -
develop a model which explains away all aspects of reality

- all aspects of reality which we know to exist prior to the development of the human mind (observer).

So - abstract out man and then following the exercise above
- re-introduce man.

Re-introduce man under renewed context of evolution.

Of the mind as an evolutionary character.

Of the mind as a product of evolution which is iteself seeking to evolve.

Complete this line of thought and we arrive back at the start of the Old Testament -
- the presence of a property residing within mind of man
- a property which we're not able to see
- since it itself is under development.

The loss of individual selfish human greed (the old way - the savage within) as the collective human mind (wisdom, morality) takes over.

Higher evolutionary form.

[SB_UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAYHT...rom=PL&index=6

...disbelieving observers
wrestling with what is real?

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Leskey, and nice to hear from you, and yes Nature could be looked at as asymmetry also, but I was merely pointing to the greater over-all symmetry encompassing nature's asymmetries. But, if we compare fundamental nature of the entire system, less human-nature, we see the superior actions of the plant and animal kingdom, not taking any more than is required for her survival, which is in quite a large invariance, compared to man's rapacious asymmetries of actions, if you catch my meanings.

If man's asymmetrical actions were more aligned with pure and fundamental nature's actions, I can only see the planet as a much improved place to live. As far as the motivations to make mankind thrive, imo, he'd thrive much better if he balanced his asymmetries more toward nature's over-all symmetrical actions of fairness to all, yet still maintaining the incentives of growth__But growth in a far more balanced condition, between Rich and Poor, wages, ideas, ideals, etc., on and on.

There is a true incentivized path, and that isn't the path of raping nature and the poor people's of the land. It's the good intuitional logic, mathematized to the truest and best incentivized order. All we have do to answer the questions of survival is ask the simple question__"Does our present intuitional logic help or hinder feeding a chipmonk, etc., etc., on and on?"

You ask; "Couldn't it(good and evil) instead be traded for a celebration of creative individuality expressed through innovation and productivity, within an holistic, overarching stewardship over sustainable natural resources?" Yes, iff we have the tenacity to decifer what facts our innate drives, intuitions and incentives are aimed at. The problem is so many not realizing their intuitions may be doing more harm than good, as in the worst case scenario of__Hitler certainly had bad and evil intuitions, as did Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. Now, of course these are far exaggerated conditions of un-natural intuitions, but anyone's natural intuitions can often lull us into the inactions necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff__This must be done, or as the old saying goes; "All it takes for evil to triumph, is for the good to do nothing."

This is why I've always pointed out that 'Intuition', can never on her own, solve the world's problems, without the guiding light of a factorizably true system of laws to support its admirable desires. Academics, over the years, has barred good and possibly true utopian ideas from the conservations. Good and true logical intuitions must be brought back center stage, in the symmetric/asymmetric truths of all conversations, which would include the good and true logical intuitions, of best ordered states and incentives. IMO, only with these better models of possible better reality, can we build better worlds. We don't live in a vacuum, per say, we live in this real man-made world. Man-made worlds must be re-made by man/woman, imo...rrr

Hi, Llloyd.

Just pausing for a moment: invariance and intolerance only serve to repeat history - current day emperor, but still naked.

Isn't nature based upon asymmetry: change, growth, development, progress, motion? Isn't this the desirable condtion of the space afforded by time...the same condition that motivates mankind to thrive?

The perpetuation of the good vs evil scenario only serves to divide and conquer...again...and, again...Couldn't it instead be traded for a celebration of creative individuality expressed through innovation and productivity, within an holistic, overarching stewardship over sustainable natural resources?

BTW, Steve, I know of "a little island..."

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Absolutely well stated Labelwench, thanks...rrr

And thanks for the music...

Hello all,

Though we brainstorm and participate in dialogue through the marvels of modern technolgy, my inner thoughts are, that as rapidly as we have progressed, we may equally well regress even more rapidly, if any of our major infrastructure is burdened beyond capacity.

Nothing lasts forever, and history records the rise and fall of many magnificent dynasties before now, some of which, even today, we are unable to sort fact from myth.

We may be approaching such a threshold, and of course we are going to be in denial.

We are a species of procrastinators, and how we have ever made it this far along the path of evolution, is almost an argument in itself for divine intervention. The record shows that it is likely not the result of good management, lol...

Somehow, we must bring together, our scientific knowledge and our traditional knowledge, as it will require the combined skill and resources of both our 'left-brain history' and our 'right brain history' to pull us through.

Much has been documented and archived in various mediums, yet much traditional knowledge is oral in nature, passed on generation to generation, through lineage and calling, that it not be edited or used for unseemly purpose.

Susan Aglukark is a daughter of the land, and she has blended her traditional past with the modern future. Two of the songs from her first album are sincerely beautiful in their simplicity of message.

Song of the Land

and

Arctic Rose

http://www.susanaglukark.com/home.html

She now has six collections out, with selections of each available to listen to, and her music has evolved along her journey.

Regards,

Labelwench

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Leskey, and I wish what you state were really fully true and possible, but history, even history from the mouths of the most enlightened gurus and thinkers of the entire world, admit to only a 1 to 3% true enlightenment of the greater population, and none of them expected the numbers to grow__even in light of the massive amounts of information being contributed by the web of information. The trouble is this holistic information, must be processed into the web of knowledge__And that's a tall inductive order. Everyone in the world is attempting this right now__Few, or truly none, so far, are succeeding. This fact we must face...

It's that same old battle between Intuition and Logic... Which one carries the precedence we truly need?__Both...rrr

That 'nothing lasts forever' is the current state of affairs: a given.

It's the possiblitiy of holistic, overarching stewardship over sustainable natural resources that's hypothesised.

The few tiresome pretenders will always perpetuate 'unseemly purpose,' but there's consolation in the inevitability that the evolution of consciousness leads to attitudinal conformity or redundancy.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Mikal, and thanks for your comments, and ohhhh how I wish it were all so easy, but imo, we all must realize we are embedded within the consciousness of the entire planet__There is no escape or transcendence out, except into the false utopias of abstract tautologies, spinning webs of excellence to infinity, to ourselves/themselves, yet never finding a true grounding for our/their self-spinning webs of existential meanderings, and this to me, is a sad truth. IMO, we must start where we are, and that's truly embedded in this horrible system, then truly and fully grounded, figure our way back to sanity of incentives and intuitions, compatible with all our holistic desires.

As an example, I(Heraclitus example) long ago traded transcendences for transc(i)ndences, after realizing there were no valid 'false' exits from reality. We're all going to have to pay that $$$100 dollars per hot-dog, with no increase in pay, if we do not pay attention to the gansters raping us out of home and comfort...rrr

Please forgive me for being so honest__I'm simply sounding_what I see_as a necessary warning, for your and everyone's future survival...

P.s.
Please, realize others are far better at maintaining an unbiased opinion within their posts, at times, than am I. Please forgive any harshness of opinion, I may have inferred, as I mean no ill intent to anyone__Thanks again, for all your contributions...

Do you realize LW, that the evolution of consciousness is one's consciousness being lifted up out of the collective, mass mindset that is now pushing us towards the edge of a cliff...one is either pushed and pulled in this collective force or exits from it to see our society with full clarity and cognition so as to begin to think for themselves, to own one's own mind...to innovatively and creatively function outside the grip of mass, collective thought presently pushing our society....


Regards Mikal

[Lloyd Gillespie]

SB, thanks for this excellent contribution...rrr

"There appears to be complete agreement in all posts above - perhaps in all posts which I've ever read ... ... all that we require is scientifically backed (sensible) insight into our own mind - an insight which comes from development of a single consistent logical model which encompasses all aspects of reality which are immune from human intervention." SB

~post~
3 13

Summary

There appears to be complete agreement in all posts above
- perhaps in all posts which I've ever read

... ... all that we require is scientifically backed (sensible) insight into our own mind
- an insight which comes from development of a single consistent logical model which encompasses all aspects of reality which are immune from human intervention.

So - abstract man out from the Universe (in a thought experiment) -
develop a model which explains away all aspects of reality

- all aspects of reality which we know to exist prior to the development of the human mind (observer).

Examples

what is oxygen?
what's a bar magnet?
why was life seeded?
what existed prior to the Big Bang?

- no requirement for provability
~s~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Islamic philosophy
ref. Lloyd Gillespie's reference of In Sina / Avicenna's introduction of inductive logics almost exactly 1000 years ago

(good stuff)

- sole requirement for the model to make sense
- and to withstand empirical scrutiny in all of those aspects of the model which're open to empirical scrutiny.

So ... ... ... an interconnected model which may be drawn in two colours -
grey and black -
Grey and Black making associative sense -
black more formally empirically provably so.

Grey - a suggestion of what existed pre Big Bang
- a very real question which we may answer though forever unprovably.

A model though which is consistent with everything we know to be true from investigations which are possible within our structure Universe of action.

The model for whatever existed prior to the Big Bang must be compatible with everything we see around us today.

What do we need ?
we need an autonomously regulated mechanism for a sand timer to turn
- and then a mechanism for evolution (autonomous geometric series) to be driven within the previously empty now filling lower chamber of the sand timer.

Association between the sand timer and the biblical 'eye of the needle' -
the mechanism of the black hole
- the black hole reflecting the basic mechanism (at a level which the human eye can observe)

- the basic mechanism of all structures within (and outside of our) reality.

The eversion as the autonomous procedure by which the sand timer turns.



I'd never heard of the geometric process of eversion prior to being taught of its existence on ADD forums.

The Holy grail is a depiction of the geometry of eversion.

The autonomously regulate switch from

\_~_/
\\_/.... energy moves from upper to lower chamber
|||
//_\
/\\\\

to

\__//
\\_/
|||
//_\
/\~\\ ...chambers reversing as the upper chamber empties

{{{recursion}}}n

\_~_/
\\_/.... energy moving from upper to lower chamber once more
|||
//_\
/\\\\


>-<







- slinky eversion turning itself inside out (like a glove) in the process of transformation


\\
///
...................................../((

- the basis to 'bilateria'
- that slightly off not quite 2d/3d symmetry which characterizes reality (particularly evident when we look in the mirror)
- the 'off-white' symmetry which those with particularly gifted eyes have been able to observe.



~*~

So - abstract out man and then following the exercise above
- re-introduce man.

Re-introduce man under renewed context of evolution.

Of the mind as an evolutionary character.

Of the mind as a product of evolution which is iteself seeking to evolve.

Complete this line of thought and we arrive back at the start of the Old Testament -
- the presence of a property residing within mind of man
- a property which we're not able to see
- since it itself is under development.

The loss of individual selfish human greed (the old way - the savage within) as the collective human mind (wisdom, morality) takes over.

Higher evolutionary form.

[SteveA]

I agree with you SB_UK that greed isn't going anywhere and I don't think that in itself its a problem and in fact it can give people direction and motivation (though it can also be a debilitating craving and the single mindedness of it can be limiting and stagnating).

Bad habits don't need to be seen as social problem either as long as they're only affecting an individual. I think everyone is motivated by self interest and that's what keeps things running (we just want to expand the vision, improve the ability for people to have options and increase the efficiency by which people can meet these and even discover new horizons - self interest can still be the motivation, but with enough foresight I think people can recognize that teamwork can help everyone "get there", which personally I think is a dynamically growing state ... in many ways we can "get there" right now because it's more of a "sweet spot" in how life is seen and expanding the options and removing the obstacles and finding the best paths that have a continual growth and beauty).

I don't think anyone owes society anything except a respect for everyone elses independence and freedom and if we move from force/repulsion/intimidation/exclusion/conformity etc. to examples of leading by attraction, educating by example, guiding by inspiration and promoting by non-exclusion etc. then there are no conflicts and its only ignorance of the benefit of this that appear to cause the conflicts. In fact any smart wannabe tyrrant should be able to see we're all better off like that ... the problem is that most tyrrants are tyrrants because they weren't smart enough to get what they wanted by working with people and instead ruined the fun for everyone else (and ultimately even themselves, but again, that's one of the problems - too short sighted a view and yes, this probably does arise from a materialistic view in which changes and uncertainties appear to make present investments toward the future less desirable - that's actually a phenomenon in economics as well).

As usual I rambled some but my point was that greed in some ways does have its value (people need desires and an internal sense of direction, even if its not ideal - these can grow over time. When someone realizes the cravings don't serve well and they can still get where they want to go without the painful desires, then it gets better) - we just need some intelligence added to it so that greed gets a larger perspective and longer term view and then suddenly it turns into wisdom and then we can get the party going! LOL!