East Meets West Logic...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

JOSEPH SHAPIRRO...

In the year of the atomic bomb, the world spirit gave birth to a child --- a very unusual child, with inordinate powers of vision and sagacity. Robert Kimsky was born with the ability to see the other side, which is usually blind to the average, except in the sudden flashes of vision we all have for fleeting seconds in our lives. These never seem connected enough to make total sense.
As a young boy, the entire world was crystal clear to the ways of justice and truth beyond all perception to the common mind of man. Though he saw full well the troubled ways of the world he was born into, the path out of these troubles was laid clear in his mind from early on -- in as yet crude form. The years to come would bring him dialogue necessary to relay his yet highly complex visions he himself was unable, early on, to relay even to his parents... .................. ................................................ ...................
"How does the monetary system work?"
"Just out of the blue....? Well, looking over in the Middle East, Russia, and the 3rd world, not very good, Joseph."
"Yes, but how does it work to you? Is it mechanical or psychological?"
"Really, it's both."
"Which has the largest influence to you?"
"Let me answer it this way. Both the psychological and the mechanical are mechanical."
"If both are mechanical to you, how do you explain that......?
"Let me answer by asking you a few questions that may be able to answer your own."
"Fine."
"Do we have a past history?"
"Yes."
"Can we change that past?"
"No."
"Does the past have mechanics?"
"Yes."
"Does it have psychology?"
"Yes."
"Is the past dead and gone, never to actually return?"
"Yes, I'd have to say that is true."
"Can anything dead have the psychological?"
"No, I'd have to say it can't."
"Can anything dead have the mechanical?"
"Yes, I'm sure it can."
"Is history a dead past?"
"Yes, I'd say it was."
"Then, by your own reasoning you have proven with scientific logic that history is a past mechanic............................"
"Yes.................., I suppose I have, but what of the present and the living? It surely isn't a mechanic?"
"Why not?"
"Because, there's life. There's spirit. We're alive....."
"Do you know anyone who can prove the spirit isn't mechanical?"
"Myself!"
"I don't mean to be argumentative, but I don't believe you can. Would you please explain how......................? You seem to be taking quite some time?"
"I was trying to think of a proof, but I'd never thought about it before. It's a hard one."
"That's because the only ground you have to stand on is faith. There is no scientific proof of the spirit not being mechanical, Joseph."
"I can't believe that, though!"
"Yes, but that's all you have is belief. I don't believe you can prove it."
"I still have trouble accepting it."
"Why do you think you were so quiet when I asked you to prove it.........?"
"Can you prove it is, Robert?"
"No. I can't."
"If you can't, why did you have me try to then?"
"I didn't intentionally. That's just where the conversation led.........."
"What was the original point?"
"The psychological being mechanical........."
"Then, you differentiate between the spirit and the psychological?"
"Yes, I do..................."
"Robert? How do you interpret the psychological, exactly?"
"The psychological is an actual of this world we live in - the actual thoughts of real people - the ideas behind the actions people take. At the same time, the psychological must commit the will to action to create the mechanic actual. The psychological exists only in people's minds and has no effect in the real mechanic world, until committed to action."
"What about politics?"
"An actual person runs for office, and actual people elect him."
"What about religion?"
"Here again, you have the psychological that has no action until it commits the will to act, such as building and going to church, reading books and living normal Christian lives."
"What about prayer?"
"There again, It can't be answered."
"Can't be answered?"
"There's no way to prove it. It's only faith."
"And faith?"
"Faith is a great thing. It's just I choose to have it in reason, science, logic, and mechanics..........................."
"What about passion and emotions?"
"What do you mean?"
"Are feelings a mechanic to you.........................?"
"Partially, yes."
"Could you expand on that?"
"Well Joseph, it's an area I don't much like talking about as it's so paradoxical to relay the truth of feelings, personal feelings that is, but if you want to know I'll try to come as close as I can to it. I said partially because most feelings are reflex actions from experience and knowledge. This is the largest class of feelings I use and probably you also. These have been learned as a mechanic action to experience since birth through memory. The other class of feelings are new experiences you must digest into your mind, and I try to mechanicalize as many as possible. It just makes life easier and simpler. There's a third class of feelings that are always left open to special circumstances which are private to me and will remain private. Does that answer your question................?"
"Yes, as close as it's going to be answered, I guess.................. Robert? Then as far as your concerned, the monetary system is mechanical only?"
"Yes, to me it is."
"I still need more convincing that it's mechanical only."
"Is it psychological only?"
"No, not at all."
"You think it's both?"
"I definitely do, yes!"
"Joseph. I'm only trying to prove a point that probably can't be proved either. It's just that it makes it so much simpler to work in one frame of mind at a time."
"But what if it's not correct?"
"Let's explore the mechanical further, then."
"Fine. What are your mechanical proofs?"
"Cosmology, physics, quantum mechanics, and the relativity principles and theory."
"That's a mindful."
"Yes, a rather large area. Where should we start first?"
"Cosmology. Prove something to me with it.................."
"Let's play devil's advocate. You attack it. I'll defend it."
"How do you want to go about that?"
"I say the universe is mechanical. What do you say?"
"In it's entirety?"
"In it's entirety!"
"The spirit is part of the universe and that part is not mechanical."
"What isn't mechanical about the spirit?"
"Free Will."
"Yea, that's good - free will to make one or the other of two choices of any action!"
"It makes many choices."
"Yes, but all are yin and yang, positive and negative, good and evil, a binary coded spirit."
"How do you know that?"
"Can you think of anything else...........................?"
"What about the cosmological origin -- the supreme ultimate?"
"What about it?"
"Did it create itself?"
"Like Poincar‚ said, the closer to singularities, the more impredicative meaning becomes, or a singularity is an impredicative paradox."
"Can you explain yourself a little clearer?"
"I'd have to use quantum mechanics."
"That's fine."
"Well Joseph, the uncertainty principle states and has been proven so since the `30's, that observation changes the experiment in quantum motion and position. The closer one is observed, the more impossible it is to observe the other. I call it the paradoxical particle theory."
"You seem to be proving more to my side."
"Not at all."
"How do you mean?"
"These are experiments at close to the speed of light, and we both know about the Lorenz transformation and matter increasing in mass and shrinking in size as it approaches the speed of light, to the point, in my opinion, where it becomes spirit.................."
"That's new to me."
"Imagine it is."
"Where did you get this information from?"
"It's my own theory."
"Can you prove it?"
"It can't be disproved."
"That doesn't prove it?"
"No, but a c-light speed createx sure simplifies cosmological theory."
"This is leading nowhere. Why do you think it's all mechanical?"
"Show me something that isn't."
"This whole great universe, and you think it's all mechanical?"
"Yes!"
"Explain how the human mind is mechanical..................."
(continued...)

[Lloyd Gillespie]

"Joseph, You sure are persistent. You know just as well as I do, since you've studied particle physics also, and field theory and fact, that nothing down to the smallest waves, even the waves of the human mind, all function to the discovered mechanical laws of nature and science. There's nothing in the whole universe ever discovered that is not consistent with scientific mechanical logic."
"What about the unknowns?"
"What about them?"
"You admit, they exist?"
"Sure."
"Doesn't that prove there may be something else?"
"Doesn't prove it won't be mechanical..............."
"What about biology?"
"That all seems to be proving to be mechanical also. The human genome, the Holy Grail of biology, may have a complex combination of over two billion, but it's still proving to be absolutely mechanical as research progresses."
"You seem to be positively convinced and confident to no end to your position. You must have a deep seated motive for your belief. Would you care to share that information?"
"Sure, I'd be glad to................ I'm interested in working toward the goal of solving some of the world's great problems, which we both know all too well. I believe it must be done, in and by the mechanical sciences, as human nature functions on free will, thus has the ability to be inherently evil, and only solid scientific logic will solve earth's problems -- because humankind is too frail."
"Which of the social sciences do you think will be the most likely to solve some to these problems?"
"You named it in your original question today......................"
"The monetary system?"
"Well, economics or the science of money."
"And you believe that must be mechanical?"
"I didn't say that. I said it was both."
"You seem to contradict."
"No. It's only a semantical difference."
"Precisely what?"
"Our opposing interpretations of the psychological."
"All right Robert, since you said originally it was both, what is your interpretation and vision of the psychological as it relates to the monetary system?"
"Ah Joseph, give me a minute................. Cup of coffee?"
"Yes, thanks, that would be good.............................................. ........"
"Now, in answer to your question -- The psychological element in economics and politics plays a major role, and has over the last 100 years more than any time before except in war - law's nervous breakdown - when the psychotic takes over the economic and plays its part until there is a victor. At the same time, the eco-mechanical sits in the background in the infrastructures of nations built up to the date of war, and the richest military machines usually win."
"What is the overall psychological influence you see over that last 100 years?"
"In a word, egalitarianism -- but, it's much more complex than that. There's been a psychological inertial buildup of political feelings since the earliest recorded history, theocratic, secular, democratic, despotic, and populist - to only mention some. Most psychological influences are based on some ideal rather than the actual. Still, this doesn't lessen its influences. At the same time, the mechanical actual of what the monetary system is capable of supplying is the ruling factor."
"So basically, I'd say you really do realize and accept a truly psychological influence of people's feelings, as long as their classified under actual committed political action to bring about real change."
"Well, I'd be foolish not to."
"Do you see this as a positive or negative influence?"
"Both..............."
"What are these positive and negative influences.......................?"
"Credit has been greatly expanded in the last 100 years beyond any believable standards of late 19th century thoughts and fears, especially with the New Deal legislation and comparable European systems, that actually preceded ours. After the New Deal, came the Bretton Woods system to further expand world liquidity capabilities and finally in the `50's, the birth of the Euro-dollar system and its phenomenal growth since - to see us through wars, oil shock, and war again. These are all positive aspects of the psychological over economics, even though many are clearly mechanical institutions, their original impetus was quite psychological."
"And on the negative.....................?"
"At the same time credit has been expanded, debt and fictitious wealth have grown at an even faster pace, to the point where credit formation world-wide is actually worse than the `20's and `30's. The greatest negative influence and most important element of the world monetary system happened in the early `70's, with the virtual death of the Bretton Woods system, floating exchange, and gold. This must be stressed as the top, and in my opinion, full problem. There have been still further problems since, with the widening of exchange rates, after the float, that has created massive speculative opportunities, and with the extreme growth of Euro-dollars contributing to a massive world pool, many speculators are operating in. Many 3rd world nations have been bankrupted by this extreme monetary anarchy. This is mainly all a psychological phenomenon because it was economists, not educated enough, who pushed false psychological theories on the world, when history is very clear on the impossibility of floating exchanges working for any great amount of time."
"Isn't that being a little paranoid?"
"Not hardly! It's being seriously wise....................!"
"Why do you get so hostile?"
"I get offended by having the integrity of my intelligence questioned without basis!"
"I had basis!"
"What...........................?"
"Robert. Please? Isn't it true that floating exchanges have been resorted to many times in history, especially to finance wars and excessive social projects?"
"Yes Joseph, that's very true. But, they've always ended in depressions, exchange control, fixed exchanges, or exchange clearing of some form or another."
"So, I take it you're an advocate of one of those three?"
"Yes."
"Which one do you have the highest respect for?"
"Exchange clearing......................................."
"Robert. Getting back to a few minutes ago - What exactly did you mean by fictitious wealth........................?"
"Wealth created beyond actual trade. By this I mean basically speculation, but the entire world monetary system, and especially floating exchanges, plays a major role in its creation - and also the advent of the Euro-dollar system with its multiplication factors added to the equation."
"I know it's an extremely difficult and complex question, but in your opinion,............. what is the quintessential essence, the exegesis of the workings of the world monetary system.............................?"
"You want a short or a long answer?"
"At first, try to make it a brief synopsis......................"
"As you know, I've studied this subject for some forty odd years, and in that time, also talking to thousands on the very subject and formulating my own opinions, a clear vision has taken seat in my mind. After the vision formed, it has still taken years of writing and analyses of my own work to put it into clear words. What I've come up with is, perpetual economic suzerainty by floating forward exchange `Kastdevisen."
"That's very interesting."
"Thank you, but how so?"
(continued...)

[Lloyd Gillespie]

"Well, the perpetual economic suzerainty you mentioned fills a gap in my own vision, even though I've never heard the term before, I do know what it means, as I've seen older historians use the term suzerainty describing military dominance of other nations. Joining those three words together has a powerful ring. I Like it because it matches some of my own foreign exchange thinking, but I've never been thoroughly able to see clearly the complex psychology and mechanics involved in the total workings of the monetary system, through the foreign exchange system."
"What is your vision, Joseph, in a condensed version............................?"
"Ever since being a child, I've studied a great deal of histories, many other social sciences, including economics, and a certain simple overall picture has formed in my mind. It may sound a little trite, but it's glasses of water. Say you take two glasses, or three or more, and let them represent monetary systems of two or more independent nations. The only way to raise or lower the content of any glass is to raise or lower the content of another. This same process is true, to a degree, with monetary systems, excluding the fact of their internal multiplication factors of banking, business, and credit expansions. So in my view, nations grow and decline by adding and detracting from each other. The problem comes in, in my mind, where a rich nation, whose glass is now full, heads down the road of economic decline. How does a wise and prosperous nation's monetary glass empty, as we've witnessed with Egypt, Greece, Rome, Spain, England, etc., in your view excluding the established and accepted explanations?"
"You have asked the sixty-four thousand dollar question.............. I call it the Kondratieff deal changing hands from one economic suzeraintic power to the next, through the process of the theory and fact of currency overuse and abuse. Nicoli Kondratieff, I'm sure you know, was a Russian economist of long wave economic theory. Although he did not state this process, I feel the name `Kondratieff' the appropriate title to describe such a cycle's decline. Just to take a clear example, we can look at the United States right now in 1991. America is clearly the ruling economic suzeraintic power in the world which she acquired from WW I England onward. America is experiencing extreme increases in debt load due to a series of very complex market transactions most people haven't the foggiest idea about. Without getting in too deep at the present time, let me state that it is a simple mechanical problem with her law structures, mainly, if not fully, floating exchanges."
"You say you don't want to get too deep?"
"Yes, that's true Joseph. I'd like to save it for another day when our heads are clearer."
"Without getting any deeper, could you just throw out the names of the other major contributing factors............................?"
"I'll give you some of them. Number one of course is floating exchanges; two is forward exchange; three speculation; four politics; five law; six Euro-dollars; seven tax structures; eight interest rates; nine national debt; ten arbitrage; eleven hedging; twelve credit productivity; thirteen fictitious wealth; fourteen `Kastdevisen'; and fifteen printing press theory."
"I see. I guess we are going to have quite a conversation ahead of us."
"Yes, But Joseph, for now I'm completely worn out talking about this subject. So, could we finish in days ahead?"
"Oh, that's fine with me. It's been very interesting and enlightening so far. You've given me much to ponder, organize and reorganize, and I thank you. Oh, look at the time. It's past midnight. I must be going..........................."
"Call me in a few days, and we'll talk again."
"Good enough Robert. Thanks. Good night."
"Good night Joseph. Drive safely."

[SteveA]

I don't know why Lloyd would assume my reply to Spacedout was sarcastic. I simply realized that I've been on the wrong side of the fence and I now appreciate the value of team spirit

You make some good points regarding engineering greenhouses, Steve, and how efficient they can be when compared to much of agriculture today.

An entirely different methodology you are using in speaking to other points, and while I may comprehend your reasons for same, I wouldn't want other posters to feel rebuffed for offering some suggestions and speaking points.

This is Lloyd's thread, however, and I am overstepping my authority in making such comment.

Sometimes, I live dangerously.....

Those ideas regarding greenhouses were things I've considered before. If people truly felt a need, with a decent level of technology and ability to efficiently construct a greenhouse, it seems you could use solar energy in an area with little of any water and by using a refrigeration technique, extract moisture from any air leaving a greenhouse and recycle it back into the system. Air could be allowed to enter via suction on the side and with a relatively small amount of organic material a relatively closed ecosystem could be built pretty much anywhere - an area that gets lots of sunshine should be particularly adept for this application and there are probably lots of arid regions that could utilize this.

The efficiency goes up for larger scales as well, to a point - the solar input is over a surface and there's a point where you get diminishing returns, but that's basically the cost of putting a sheet of glass over a plant ... not very expensive actually (a desert has plenty of sand to make glass from! and you only need a thin organic layer or low volume of organic material and can recycle it) and you could save a lot of transportation costs. In fact, if you located this near an area with salt water you could skip the condensation/recycling element and allow evaporation of salt water to provide the water and that would give you both a source of food as well as fresh water. The tradeoff would be the need to remove solid materials after evaporation, though that seems a rather minor issue and could be engineered to be a largely automatic component.

You could have an inexpensive module that's just an enclosed glass or plastic structure (having it elevated with a hollow support structure would allow dust and dirt to fall through it and not block sunlight) and then a couple more expensive modules to provide the irrigation for the rest, but you wouldn't need these to be a large percentage of the cost, so it could be highly modular, extensible and conform to an available terrain.

Again, this is one of the reasons I've felt that people saying the world is overpopulated isn't overly true. It could become difficult to find simple and natural manners to provide food and water, but with a bit of work we can do better than just using what nature happens to have lying around within convenient reach. It just takes some desire and work if people really want it.

Capitalism and free markets make it work peacefully - if resources are more scarce, people naturally have fewer children (as long as we don't have forced subsidization). If those resources become more expensive, people search for other alternatives and as technology progresses, we find better capabilities ... that's the strength of 6 billion minds and nature working peacefully without need for much of any supervision, except to keep the predators, cancers and leeches from tearing it apart (Even when the claims are of best intentions, anytime someone wants to use a law or gun to "help" should be able to explain their motivations clearly and preferably show working examples If it takes thousands of pages to define a "free trade" agreement, it's not really a free trade agreement at all).

[spacedout]

Work camps of the thirties had a central kitchen that prepared food for all in the camp. This is real efficiency -- no need for a kitchen in every home. Food in bulk would reduce the waist of having piles of tin cans glass, paper and plastic. I've experimented with windmills -- I bought a car altinater extended the shaft and put a blade on it. It cost me less than 100 dallors to build. Each home could be powered by this type of wind mill especially in Texas wher the wind blows most of the time. Water of course would have to be recycled. The windmill I built will turn off when the wind is to strong. One problem is that it makes a lot of noise -- a cycle shapped blade should be quieter.

[SteveA]

Work camps of the thirties had a central kitchen that prepared food for all in the camp. This is real efficiency -- no need for a kitchen in every home. Food in bulk would reduce the waist of having piles of tin cans glass, paper and plastic. I've experimented with windmills -- I bought a car altinater extended the shaft and put a blade on it. It cost me less than 100 dallors to build. Each home could be powered by this type of wind mill especially in Texas wher the wind blows most of the time. Water of course would have to be recycled. The windmill I built will turn off when the wind is to strong. One problem is that it makes a lot of noise -- a cycle shapped blade should be quieter.

These are great ideas, and I enjoy similar ones. I was interested in the idea of a home half underground and things like how to keep moisture from collecting (for example, you could build it somewhere that's somewhat elevated). My comments previously were just trying to point out that there's a difference between using government to do these via legislation, laws etc., versus having them arise more naturally from desires and private pursuits.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The Whole Show Is Moving To China…

The Simple Mathematical Algorithm of Economics Is “Pure Count…”

My Economic Models Have All Been Run Through The Computations of The Logical Non-Contradictions of The Algorithms of “Pure Count…”

Currency Exchanges__The #1 Economic Controller__Are The Easiest To Count… China__6.68 To America__1…

Beware__The Classical Model’s Ergodic Fallacies…

Time Is Not On Our Side of Comparative Advantage...

[labelwench]

China shows up on the grocery front as well.

1) Rice.
2) Mandarin oranges, both fresh and canned.
3) Water chestnuts.
4) Canned mushrooms.
5) Fresh garlic.

Just to name the first five that spring to mind, and products which we move in huge volume.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

DIALOGUES OF THE DEAD

THE BLACK SECRET

SOCRATES

"Socrates my good man, glad to see you back again. Did you have a nice rest....................?"
"Quite comfortable, and quite interesting my son."
"How so, do you mean, sir?"
"Well, I've witnessed all of civilization over the last 2400 years, with its excitements and pains, trials and tribulations, moments of greatness and decline. It's been very enlightening..............................."
"Sounds like an experience anyone would dream of wanting. Tell me, of all the great periods of history you've seen, which would you prefer to live in?"
"Why Robert my boy, today of course. That's why I've returned here and now.............."
"What most impresses you about today's society compared to ancient Greece..........................?"
"On a simple level, the automobile and freedom of the road, the comfort of my new Cadillac Eldorado, the sheer joy of riding and seeing new places and people so far and so fast, the pleasures and comforts of modern living standards -- I could go on forever.................... On a more complex level, the pride I have for and see in your modern institutions and especially that great document, the constitution of the United States of America. The stock market on Wall Street is a wonder to the eyes and mind, and the trading pits in Chicago, by the way, where I made most of my money since returning to set myself up so comfortably. I could go on forever. The modern world amazes me."
"I can see you're quite enthralled......................"
"Yes, extremely................. I'll try to control myself more."
"Oh, that's quite alright and understandable."
"I was told you were quite interested in discussing my life in Athens, as it relates to life today. Is that correct?"
"Yes, as a matter of fact. That's quite true."
"What would you like to know?"
"I'm interested in what you personally think about your own life in Athens, as to yours and others' views and mind sets today."
"You mean a view of my intellect then and now?"
"Precisely."
"H'mm..., as you know, I was quite a jester."
"Was it all in fun?"
"No, not at all."
"Could you explain it a little further, then.................?"
"I was actually quite vain and arrogant. You had to be at that time, to a point, but I put myself across in intellectual jesting to relieve tension, on the one hand, and to advance the schools of thought, rhetoric and logic, on the other."
"How did you accomplish such a high intellectual level of jesting?"
"That's really just an old trick taught in our schools of rhetoric, to combine the actual and the ideal, and put them across as one subject. In the `60's and `70's, here in America, you learned much about game theory, paradoxes, and semantics, while working with A.I. computer programs, and in other courses as well, that have thoroughly caught up to my old mind and intellect, and far surpassed it."
"What about the more serious goals?"
"By joining the actual and ideal as one subject, you can create confusion and doubt in the student, which leads to deeper investigations and the beginning of true learning. It was a trick taught by our schools and courses of rhetoric to enhance interest in the short attention spans of our youth. They treated it as a game and it worked quite well."
"So basically, it's a paradoxical and semantical use of the mind."
"Quite so."
"Then why were you arrested and given an unwanted, but choice of execution?"
"Without sounding too boisterous.............. I was the best, the most visible of this school. Using rhetoric in the manner I used it does have its drawbacks and down side. There are always some youth who's minds are too sensitive to be toyed with in such a manner. There were some suicides and reprisals of vengeance. You must understand, the times were far different then than today. I made mistakes as all humans do."
"What different would you do today?"
"I'd make a much more careful selection of students for rhetoric training, as only a certain caliber of character is truly fitted to it."
"Let's change the subject for a moment. What were the social and intellectual conditions of the time...................................?"
"Discounting slavery, military, and direct class divisions by law, they were very similar to today's world, in the more free and democratic societies. There were basically two opposing factions of the social contract, the theocratic and the secular. I choose to use theocratic even in today's world, as many religions still have the theocratic state as their heart's goal. The secular was trying to perfect its esoteric and exoteric intellectica, as was the theocratic. There was also the populist natural influencing for everything from left to right. Both the theocratic and secular also had every element left, right, and center -- intelligent compassionate people, to zealots in all walks, much the same as today."
"What about the parochial peoples and communities.........?"
"Well Robert, that was our greatest problem in setting up and maintaining social laws and institutions. It was also a great commercial problem because this was the largest entity of culture clash. The parochials had no or little respect, let alone, understanding of the city states' laws, and this was a major point of contention. They couldn't read or write. Lord, many of our own citizens couldn't, but they learned as children growing always do. It was an entirely different story with the outsiders, especially in any commercial trade and transactions. Their culture, commercially, was one of barter, some coin and much dickering and haggling over trades and prices - sometimes for hours on end. Of course in crowded cities, this is an impossible way to conduct business, as it would consume all your time, and commercial transactions would be reduced to the point of citizens going without. We had to pass laws to defend our merchant's person and price, which created the clash, as much, if not more than anything else. The parochial peoples thought it was an infringement of their personalities, and the citizens knew the slowing down of trade was an infringement of their rights -- A stand-off of rights, much the same as exists between the Palestinians and the Israelis today............."

[Lloyd Gillespie]

"That's very interesting................ Socrates? On another subject, what do you see as the major contributing factor of Greece's decline.....................?"
"Trying not to repeat established histories, which all have their truths, I'd say the suzeraintic battle between the three great Masonic superpowers of the day, Egypt, Greece, and Rome. The major impetus for the decline was monetary."
"I noticed you referred to them as Masonic empires. Why is that?"
"Just look what still stands today, the work of masons. All three societies were built with a major commitment to the stone-masons of the day, as they were the real power of the three empires. They not only were the artisans, laborers, and slaves, they were the engineers, architects, politicians, and much of the intellectual classes, whether theocratic, who started it, or secular. These early societies centered around stone and masonry, probably because stone was an early form of money and trade transactions.........."
"What about the monetary...............?"
"Oh yes............................. As you know, there were the wars, divisions of power and empires, religion's influence, though small at that time, and diverse other theories historians put forward, but none of them, except maybe your own Einzig, has done a great deal with the monetary aspects. Oh, they've discussed the economic, but in monetary terms, in my opinion, the real decline was due to a combination of floating exchanges, inflations, capital flight, and speculation on massive scales, especially against Egypt, and old Persia, and later against Rome. Einzig has shown where inflation started in Egypt, under Cleopatra, and continued for 400 years, until the currency unit was practically worthless. They also left their gold coin and reverted to fiat and tale. We also had our problems with these same things in Greece, and at different times left gold coin and used leather and other objects as currency again."
"So, you think it was mainly depreciation of the monetary units and speculations?"
"Most definitely. Yes. And, numismatics' history is very clear to this fact..............."
"Socrates? After taking in the modern world, are you optimistic or pessimistic about its present and future?"
"That depends."
"On what?"
"On who's making policy decisions, laws, political decisions, and leading the nations of the world."
"Can you narrow that down a little?"
"I see the world at a great impasse, with the divisions between the superpowers, Russia, China and America, war in the Middle East with Israeli and Arab divisions, and the social divisions between secular and theocratic states -- plus the great rift between rich and poor states of the 3rd world, and the looming world debt bomb. I feel these problems are not being addressed in the proper perspective and content, which tends me toward pessimism. Yet, on the other hand, I'm highly optimistic these problems can and will be cured, if we so arrange our priorities and practices to address extensively the overall world conditions -- with a goal to a unity of knowledge and understanding."
"I take it your confidence lies in education, practices, and actions. What would you suggest?"
"I believe we should convene a world monetary council of the brightest minds the globe has to offer, to research and reach goals leading to a unity of thought and mind. This should be a special school similar to MITTA in Japan, but on a much smaller scale, since its dedicated purpose will be in only one field -- the absolute improvement of the world monetary system. This could be easily funded by the results, more than paying the costs."
"We already have many think tanks in America."
"Yes, I know. And, I feel many, if not most are great and have contributed immensely in their respective fields, but none are dedicated solely to the monetary system, especially with emphasis on the foreign exchanges and exchange clearing theory."
"Ah, Socrates, you’re a man after my own heart. For I too feel the same way about this field of study...................."
"That's interesting, because I myself, so far, have found few with complex enough understanding and interest in this area of monetary theory."
"What about forward exchange?"
"Oh, you’re familiar with that also? That's excellent. And Euro-dollars and currency?"
"Yes, very familiar........... You know, I can't believe how many people know nothing of these markets, when their printed in most papers of the nation, the Wall Street Journal, and Barron's, etc......................."
"Robert............. I feel it goes back to the Roosevelt era, not that he wasn't a great president, which he was, but the decline of the importance of the foreign exchange schools, and the rise in importance of the pseudo-science monetarist schools. I'm not trying to trivialize their importance. It's just they stole the name `Monetary' and put it in place of money, which is altogether two different schools of thought, and has deceived many, young and old alike, in this great nation, that the monetary school is studying the monetary system -- as used to be done in its entirety, but now has fizzled to the study more of the local economy and some global market droplets."
"Yes, I agree with you, whole-heartedly............. Now, taking the conversation back a step, who do you feel you'd like to see head up a new monetary system think tank?"
"I have so much respect for your constitution, I feel the greatest should be assembled and democratically elect their own to govern the assembly............"
"Socrates? What are your thoughts on government today.................?"
"I think it all boils down to this, which we've been discussing. I could flatter and criticize, but I feel the world monetary system controls governmental thought more than government controlling monetary thought today, and mainly because of its floating exchange posture."
"In the beginning of our discussion, you mentioned the Chicago markets being rather kind to you. Would you care to comment on how you made your fortune in such a short time.............................?"
"Many people frown on an occupation, the sort of which I've chosen. I'm proud of it. I'm a speculator.......... Many see this as the curse of the system. They have no idea how much we're required to force the workings of the markets back to social sanity and responsibility. I made most of my money short. I love the gamble, especially when you’re pretty sure of yourself."
"Socrates............ Your still the same devil you always were."
"Yes, I suppose I am, but I'm kind and mellow."
"Where did you learn the trade?"
"In Greece. Where else.........................?"
"Do you have the time?"
"Yes. Let me see.............. Oh, time has flown. It's most two o'clock. I must be off. I'm supposed to meet my broker and trader at 2:30. Sorry to have to run on such short notice. It's been great talking to you and we'll meet again. Thanks for everything. Good-by."
"Good-by to you, sir. Take it easy."
"I will. So long."