East Meets West Logic...

[leskey]

The whole transcript of this discussion is worthy of note:

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/18/134658...clear-Reactors

Participants in the discussion include:

David Lochbaum is director of the Nuclear Safety Project at the Union of Concerned Scientists. He is a nuclear engineer, and he has worked as a safety trainer for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

David Brenner, professor of radiation and biophysics and director of the Center for Radiological Research at Columbia University Medical Center.

Charles D. Ferguson is president of the Federation of American Scientists. He's also trained as a nuclear engineer.

Extract from transcript:

Mr. LOCHBAUM: We did - we tried to - we've been working on this report since November, so it wasn't a post-Japanese reaction. We also, in that report, praised the NRC for doing very good things. They made very great catches of safety problems at Browns Ferry, Oconee and the Kewaunee plant in Wisconsin.

But on the other hand, there were some problems the NRC had at Indian Point, at Peach Bottom and Vermont Yankee. So what we said was that the NRC is a very capable regulator. They just need to be more consistently effective in that regard.

If you look at over the years, the times you heard UCS whine sometimes that are more better voiced, but the times you've heard us whine about stuff it's not that we're arguing that the NRC has set the safety bar at too low a level. We generally think the NRC set the safety bar at the right level, but they're allowing one or more plants to limbo beneath that bar, rather than meet those regulations.

FLATOW: Does it have anything to do with funding levels? I mean, you know, there are all these budgetary cut bills in Congress. Is any money being cut from those safety programs?

Mr. LOCHBAUM: Well, it's related to that. In June of 1998, the Senate threatened to cut the NRC's budget by 40 percent. Five hundred NRC workers would've - had been laid off. What the Senate told the NRC was to stop enforcing its regulations. You're annoying all these plant owners with all these fines and all the requirements to fix safety problems, so just back off.

So the NRC threatened with a huge budget cut like that. They did. They folded their tent and they went away. So, basically, NRC has been allowed to - it's kind of like MMS all over again.

FLATOW: You mean in Louisiana?

Mr. LOCHBAUM: Right. The NRC can do a good job if the Congress won't tie its hands.

FLATOW: And so you - they - you're saying they should reinstate those regulations?

Mr. LOCHBAUM: No. The regulations are there. They should - the Congress should allow the NRC to enforce the regulations. When the NRC was enforcing the regulations, in 1997, nine nuclear power plants were shut down the entire year to fix safety problems. The industry went to the Congress and said, look, you've got these guys off our back. We can't operate if we have to follow all these safety regulations. The Congress told the NRC to stop enforcement of safety regulations or we'll cut your budget by 40 percent. So the NRC played duck and cover.

FLATOW: And that's, you're saying, where we are now.

Mr. LOCHBAUM: That's where we are now. We're fortunate that we haven't had problems like Japan, but if we're hit with something like that or an earthquake in some place then we could - Japan media could be talking about our disaster

[leskey]

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/2011...iodine-110326/

CTV.ca News Staff

Date: Saturday Mar. 26, 2011 8:25 AM ET

Efforts to control radiation levels in Japan are facing fresh setbacks as levels of radioactive iodine in the sea near the Fukushima nuclear plant are now 1,250 times higher than normal.

Officials admitted that it could be a crack at the core of the Fukushima Daiichi power plant that is responsible for the contamination in the area.

The development suggests that radioactive contamination may be worse than first thought, with tainted groundwater the most likely consequence...

The nuclear crisis has compounded the challenges faced by a nation already saddled with a humanitarian disaster. Much of the frigid northeast remains a scene of despair and devastation, with Japan struggling to feed and house hundreds of thousands of homeless survivors, clear away debris and bury the dead.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

INSIDIOUS: having a gradual and cumulative effect : subtle

DEGENERATE: having declined or become less specialized (as in nature, character, structure, or function) from an ancestral or former state

MYOPIC: a lack of foresight or discernment : a narrow view of something

Lesley, as to definitions__You should realize, it's according to what type and how large a dictionary one uses, the meaning you will find. Then when you combine all the different type and size of dictionaries_law_philosophy_logic_general, etc., and the largest thesauruses__you'll find that any meaning can be had__Therefore, only a proper scientific method is possible of real meaning__This is just a scientific linguistic and honest fact__Irrefutable...!!! And it just happens to be the major problem of trying to make sense with feelings, opinions, emotions and psychology, etc.__No Proper Scientific Method...!!!

At your behest, and after so much unecessary "creative, imaginative, subjective" conjecture on your part, I'll reiterate what is implicitly understood by other readers, Lloyd.

Many others have tried like you to rewrite history__A Hint__It can't be done. Our forefathers know more than you Lesley... That history is already well established and known to be true, as to its most fundamental logic and science, as all the world's many libraries record... You can think such meager psychological moaning will go somewhere, but in the West__It will not, and globally, you're about to find out the dead-end of Mid-East emotions and psychology... The worst-case outcome will be having to nuke the backward emotional cave-dwellers into the modern world__and I mean "Radical Islam", and her emotional twins, anywhere in the world...

Regardless of economic or social standing, many of those I've canvassed in Australia have expressed a similar, simple expectation of their government, i.e. that subsequent generations (namely, their children) should inherit a ecologically and socially clean, safe and happy environment. This corresponds closely to the expectation of US citizens.

And you surely don't think this is a feasible political reality, at present, do you...??? Btw, your blanket statements are not socially true__they only match those of a certain powerless minority group__the lefty-loopies__as to thinking it really possible__Now...!!! You should separate your blanket emotional statements, into social realities of the political social groups very different and independent goals and true desires...

Originally, in a democratic system, these expectations were vested in the people's representatives who, in turn, vowed that they would uphold the will of the people in their decision making processes. The results in recent democractic elections in all Western nations, speak for themselves. Experience has taught the people that neither side genuinely has their core interests a heart, and so the election results are less decisive: indicating loss of clarity, or less opposition or polarity, in the system.

If you were to read Alexis DeTocqueville's 'Democracy In America'__a two part volume, written by this young Frenchman, in the 1820's, as a critique of American democracy__you'd quite easily understand the shortcomings of democracies in all periods of history. Just as the Greeks came to realize__"Democracy is limited to the number of years it can last__Our fate of democracy's death awaits us all..." Just look at England, Today__Emotional protestors in the streets__Why...? Ignorance of DeTocqueville__Maybe...???

Drawing the analogy of the frog in the pot, all systems have a cumulative affect over time. Inevitably, it becomes difficult for the frog to discern the point at which the damage will be irrevocable. Subsequently the frog is dead; demised; passed on; is no more; ceased to be; expired and gone to meet its maker...thereby becoming an ex-frog...not unlike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

Science gleans understanding of the function of natural processes in order to harness them to the will of mankind. Politics controls and manipulates the applications of science.

The benefits of nuclear power carry with them serious risks. Building anything on a fault line carries serious risks. Therefore, it is the narrow view which condones the building of nuclear power plants on a fault line, thereby involving higher risks than are necessary and in the process, failing to ensure an ecologically and socially clean, safe and happy environment.

Therefore, building nuclear power plants on fault lines evidences the failure of a democratic government to enact the will of the people.

For consistency, equity and credibility, Lloyd, do you also insist that this proviso to state only "logical premises to match conclusions" is a pre-requisite for all posts in this thread?

Lesley, why don't you get real...??? Read the last post about ethics and logic by the later Greek Zeno__It was a great start, especially his hand to fist example, then the other hand clamping the fist__"Or Restraint of Wrong Power..." You seem to not be able to read between the lines... I'd suggest you read it again...

Given the inordinate number of nuclear reactors in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors), to even suggest the dumping nuclear waste in the backyard of other nations is exactly one of the many abject examples of the dysfunction in your political system. This type of behavior to opposition confirms the status of a megalomaniacal tyrant.

And the emotional megalomaniacal tyrant opens mouth, without consulting a scientific method__Again... Emotions don't count... Water insulates radiation better than any method known, and lasts forever, as to human life's capacities, here on lil' ol' planet Earth...

I have another much more appropriate suggestion for a suitable nuclear waste site...it's also a place where the sun don't shine...

Would that be anything to do with a 'poop shute...?' Btw, you don't own the ocean__We all do...

[austintorn@aol.com]

Leskey, your PM box is full.

The "frog in the pot" was good. 'Nuclear' is now 'unclear'.

Meanwhile, I have finished my war stories in the "A Life Revealed" thread.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hey Austin, we have a nuke waste solution in Maine... We package it in yummy apple and strawberry crackers, and sell it to tourists, in road-side stands__along route #1...

[austintorn@aol.com]

Hey Austin, we have a nuke waste solution in Maine... We package it in yummy apple and strawberry crackers, and sell it to tourists, in road-side stands__along route #1...

True, for I had some on good old Route 1, on the way to a Rangely Lake cabin one time, long ago. The bacteria in me chomped it all up, like it was nothing.

[leskey]

Lesley, as to definitions__You should realize, it's according to what type and how large a dictionary one uses, the meaning you will find. Then when you combine all the different type and size of dictionaries_law_philosophy_logic_general, etc., and the largest thesauruses__you'll find that any meaning can be had__

Of course, Lloyd. This is in agreement with my prior statement:

"Language is very much a tool of culture at a specific time, in a specific place. Meaning is prone to be 'lost in translation'...even when two people are from similar cultures and, ostensibly, speaking the same language. As I continually point out, when language is not clearly comprehended dysfunctional perception, or self-deception, is likely."

We are in agreement that it's context that determines comprehension...and, it follows that the distinctions of individual context are a key issue in comprehension

Therefore, only a proper scientific method is possible of real meaning__This is just a scientific linguistic and honest fact__Irrefutable...!!!

This is true in as much as anything can be true. It is never, however, complete.

Also, it is dependent upon the method of recording and the preservation of the comprehension of the method...and, not only the comprehension skills of the interpreter/observer, but also his specific (cultural, educational, intellectual, etc) biases and prejudices, when translating the information.

As with all of existence, the truth is as it is. It is the intent of the interpreter/observer that gives it its potential to be otherwise, i.e. whether the truth is manifested in a form that is malign or benign. And, before you jump in here, the whole point is that it is deceit, specifically cumulative deceit, which determines the outcome, not the seemingly 'random' events of nature.

IFF the objective view condones deceit, then it increases its vulnerability to malignant possibilities. Evidence the circumstances surrounding the nuclear reactor accident at Fukishima:

"The benefits of nuclear power carry with them serious risks. Building anything on a fault line carries serious risks. Therefore, it is the narrow view which condones the building of nuclear power plants on a fault line, thereby involving higher risks than are necessary and in the process, failing to ensure an ecologically and socially clean, safe and happy environment."

And it just happens to be the major problem of trying to make sense with feelings, opinions, emotions and psychology, etc.__No Proper Scientific Method...!!![/B]

Except for psychology (which is as much a field of specialization as any other vocation cultivated by the education systerm), the other qualities mentioned are the basis of sentient experience. All are 'subject' to self-deception, unless they are instinctual or innate and therefore, sensed without the need for thought. It is, thought which introduces the potential for deceit.

Many others have tried like you to rewrite history__A Hint__It can't be done.

I wouldn't presume to re-write history. If my intentions have been interpreted as attempting to do so, it is erroneous. Please refrain from making accusations based upon perceptions that are patently untrue.

Our forefathers know more than you Lesley... That history is already well established and known to be true, as to its most fundamental logic and science, as all the world's many libraries record... You can think such meager psychological moaning will go somewhere, but in the West__It will not, and globally, you're about to find out the dead-end of Mid-East emotions and psychology... The worst-case outcome will be having to nuke the backward emotional cave-dwellers into the modern world__and I mean "Radical Islam", and her emotional twins, anywhere in the world...

Just about anyone knows more than I do, Lloyd...but that shouldn't stop me, or for that matter, anyone else, from making their 'meagre' contribution. Semiosis. We're all observers. It's the contribution of every observer's personal significant insights, or little a-ha! moments, to the whole, which IS the truth. To deny the observer this right, is to forget...

John Donne (1572-1631), Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris:

"Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that."
...

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."

CONT...

[leskey]

.../CONT.

And you surely don't think this is a feasible political reality, at present, do you...??? Btw, your blanket statements are not socially true__they only match those of a certain powerless minority group__the lefty-loopies__as to thinking it really possible__Now...!!! You should separate your blanket emotional statements, into social realities of the political social groups very different and independent goals and true desires...

I sure do. That's why I enquired:

"It seems that many in the US are ignorant of the macchinations of the IPCC and its love-child, the Kyoto Protocol. Do you subscribe to the notion of man-made global warming, Lloyd? Your reply would be telling..."

A previously entrenched Labor (US should read as Democrat) government was decisively ejected in the New South Wales state election yesterday after 16 years of fiscal mismanagement. If the fiscal mismanagement was simply the issue, it's doubtful such a convincing result could have been achieved.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1226028388931

Much media attention is being given this morning to the fact that it's the Federal Labor government's intention to impose wide-ranging carbon taxes under the provisos of the Kyoto Protocol which had the greatest impact on the state election result. This might have been tolerable, had the myth of man-made global warming not finally have been discredited sufficiently to create doubt in the minds of the voting public.

If you were to read Alexis DeTocqueville's 'Democracy In America'__a two part volume, written by this young Frenchman, in the 1820's, as a critique of American democracy__

Obviously, my education is lacking in this area. This may be Utopian, but one can only hope that De Tocqueville's knowledge, or "personal significant insights" can be faithfully applied by those who make it their specialized field of interest and focus.

you'd quite easily understand the shortcomings of democracies in all periods of history. Just as the Greeks came to realize__"Democracy is limited to the number of years it can last__Our fate of democracy's death awaits us all..."

Clearly, this is my understanding, Lloyd:

"Drawing the analogy of the frog in the pot, all systems have a cumulative affect over time. Inevitably, it becomes difficult for the frog to discern the point at which the damage will be irrevocable. Subsequently the frog is dead; demised; passed on; is no more; ceased to be; expired and gone to meet its maker...thereby becoming an ex-frog..."

You just have to stop being so emotionally defensive and take the time to listen/comprehend and quit being argumentative for argument's sake. Maybe, then, you'd find you have more allies than detractors?

Just look at England, Today__Emotional protestors in the streets__Why...? Ignorance of DeTocqueville__Maybe...???

It's not necessarily ignorance, Lloyd. At the end of every era, the people are finally forced to revolt in order to decisively bring about desired change in an entrenched, corrupt system. A good example in the recent history of the West is the Women's Liberation Movement of the early 70's. The precursor to this was the role or women in WWII and prior to that, it was successfully obtaining the right for women to vote. My paternal female forebears were suffragettes.

Lesley, why don't you get real...???

And why don't you "get real," Lloyd. I may be equally in touch with reality...from my own perspective. It doesn't entitle you to in any way deny me my contribution to a greater reality.

Read the last post about ethics and logic by the later Greek Zeno__It was a great start, especially his hand to fist example, then the other hand clamping the fist__"Or Restraint of Wrong Power..." You seem to not be able to read between the lines... I'd suggest you read it again...

I haven't read it yet....so, you presume without truly knowing...I may well be able to "read between the lines"...

And the emotional megalomaniacal tyrant opens mouth, without consulting a scientific method__Again... Emotions don't count...

Well, I'm very pleased that you can recognize this...with a little work, you may be able to overcome it...

Water insulates radiation better than any method known, and lasts forever, as to human life's capacities, here on lil' ol' planet Earth...

Thermal radiation and radioactivity are two entirely different things...even this meagre one comprehends the fact.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictiona...tive+pollution

Water is the key ingredient for life.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...uestion157.htm

Water connects everything...there's no escaping it.

Would that be anything to do with a 'poop shute...?'

Btw, you don't own the ocean__We all do...

Excellent point Lloyd...but in the context of the aforementioned, it's irrelevant.

[leskey]

Another valuable contribution from history, i.e. Chernobyl:

http://www.safetycouncil.org.nz/inde...d=73&Itemid=93

"Possible causes of the disaster

"There are two official theories about the main cause of the accident. The first was published in August 1986 and effectively placed the blame solely on the power plant operators. This is known as the flawed operators theory.

"The second theory, proposed by Valeri Legasov and published in 1991, attributed the accident to flaws in the RBMK reactor design, specifically the control rods. This theory is called the flawed design theory."

Definition of FLAW
1 a : a defect in physical structure or form; b : an imperfection or weakness and especially one that detracts from the whole or hinders effectiveness; 2 obsolete : fragment

The truth often lies in what is deemed "obsolete."

Definition of DEFECT
1 a : an imperfection that impairs worth or utility : shortcoming; b : an imperfection (as a vacancy or an unlike atom) in a crystal lattice; 2 [Latin defectus] : a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection : deficiency

Origin of DEFECT
Middle English, from Latin defectus lack, from deficere to desert, fail, from de- + facere to do — more at do

Acting upon a fragment of the truth or incompleteness...i.e., knowing malign possibilities and thinking that they won't matter is the root of the mankind's dilemma. It ultimately condemns us to failure.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Of course, Lloyd. This is in agreement with my prior statement: [An outright lie__No It Is Not...!!!]

"Language is very much a tool of culture at a specific time, in a specific place. Meaning is prone to be 'lost in translation'...even when two people are from similar cultures and, ostensibly, speaking the same language. As I continually point out, when language is not clearly comprehended dysfunctional perception, or self-deception, is likely."

We are in agreement that it's context that determines comprehension...and, it follows that the distinctions of individual context are a key issue in comprehension

You are nothing but a very deceitful person here, Lesley. You have again tried to take what I say and lie/corrupt your way through another false post in my thread, about what I said__and it is not what I said. This is what I said, you oh so conveniently left out:

Lesley, as to definitions__You should realize, it's according to what type and how large a dictionary one uses, the meaning you will find. Then when you combine all the different type and size of dictionaries_law_philosophy_logic_general, etc., and the largest thesauruses__you'll find that any meaning can be had__Therefore, only a proper scientific method is possible of real meaning__This is just a scientific linguistic and honest fact__Irrefutable...!!! And it just happens to be the major problem of trying to make sense with feelings, opinions, emotions and psychology, etc.__No Proper Scientific Method...!!!

As I've often stated, the emotional opinionateds have no ideas of their own, so they try to lie their way through life. Is this action of yours a proper moral action...??? All you do is piss people off, by being such a pseudo-righteous immoralist__Your false actions are obvious, Lesley__and only favorable to other nitwit immoralists...

This is true in as much as anything can be true. It is never, however, complete.

It is absolutely complete, as all best logic, morality, love, compassion and or empathy is scientifically mathematical__The Best For All__The Fairest For All__The Mathematical Middle__No matter how you wanta cut the mustard... The emotionalists just wanna complicate the simple...

Also, it is dependent upon the method of recording and the preservation of the comprehension of the method...and, not only the comprehension skills of the interpreter/observer, but also his specific (cultural, educational, intellectual, etc) biases and prejudices, when translating the information.

Wrong, it's completely and absolutely mathematical, or it's wasted time and effort, unless one is just having fun, sex or playing__entertaining...

As with all of existence, the truth is as it is. It is the intent of the interpreter/observer that gives it its potential to be otherwise, i.e. whether the truth is manifested in a form that is malign or benign. And, before you jump in here, the whole point is that it is deceit, specifically cumulative deceit, which determines the outcome, not the seemingly 'random' events of nature.

More emotional nonsense__The world's competitions of evils, creates all the Earth's best states__It's intellectual understanding, which you are completely lacking, that's the true glue of social engineering__Just wait to see the future direction the Mid-East must take__History records the history of revolutions__Very well, thank-you... Emotions, as pertained to cultural studies, are for retards__and only rational intellects truly guide cultural studies, systems, dynamics and culture... Why do you think silly emotions have never been listened to...? They make no__zero__intellectual sense__as pertaining to the mathematically necessary...

IFF the objective view condones deceit, then it increases its vulnerability to malignant possibilities.

False, why do you think we have secret intelligence agencies, purposely lying to nations, all over the planet...? It's absolutely necessary... It's just pure stupidity to think you can run a technological nation, in this present world, without necessary deceit... You're only looking at the small picture__It don't count much...

Evidence the circumstances surrounding the nuclear reactor accident at Fukishima:

"The benefits of nuclear power carry with them serious risks. Building anything on a fault line carries serious risks. Therefore, it is the narrow view which condones the building of nuclear power plants on a fault line, thereby involving higher risks than are necessary and in the process, failing to ensure an ecologically and socially clean, safe and happy environment."

It's only because of people like you and your kind, that it was built where it was__NIMBY... I know this well, as I spent many years politically fighting your kind, so's we could build the needed nuke plants...

Except for psychology (which is as much a field of specialization as any other vocation cultivated by the education systerm), the other qualities mentioned are the basis of sentient experience. All are 'subject' to self-deception, unless they are instinctual or innate and therefore, sensed without the need for thought. It is, thought which introduces the potential for deceit.

That's really smart, Lesley__That you take the most immature states of mind, to be the most mature of your thought...!!! You've got the entire mind, completely upside down__somebody oughta inform you that intellect sits above emotion, for a reason...

I wouldn't presume to re-write history. If my intentions have been interpreted as attempting to do so, it is erroneous. Please refrain from making accusations based upon perceptions that are patently untrue.

I think I have a bit more experience than you darling, about reading peoples intents and purposes__My statements stand as correct...

Just about anyone knows more than I do, Lloyd...but that shouldn't stop me, or for that matter, anyone else, from making their 'meagre' contribution. Semiosis. We're all observers.[Wrong__Some people read enough to know the truth, as recorded by all history's greatest master minds__That's when the observer becomes the knower...] It's the contribution of every observer's personal significant insights, or little a-ha! moments, to the whole, which IS the truth.[This is a complete lie__the a-ha moments produce as much bs__as truth__To know the truth, is to know this...] To deny the observer this right, is to forget...

John Donne (1572-1631), Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris:

"Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that."
...

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me[False__"Kill swine before pearls..." New Hampshire's motto__"Live free or die..."], because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."

CONT...

Religious bs belongs in the church__As America still respects 'Separation of Church and State Powers...' Over here, we throw official church preachers out of many state functions, even public schools__As well it should be, all over the world... I support absolute 'Separation of Church and State Powers' laws, for the entire planet, so that one day we may have a little mathematical morality, truly benefitting__all our greatest societies' potentials...