East Meets West Logic...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Lorrina, and in the closed and large systems overall function, you are correct, but there's also the dis-equilibriums of many other systems, especially as exists between rich and poor populations, etc., on and on...rrr

Aren't word systems fun_we can twist and turn anything, or everything is twisted and turned_by lil' ol' nature, herself...

Would this not be an example of equilibrium, in that the amount of energy remains constant, yet it is a dynamic balance, because it retains such equilibrium by means of change?

Or perhaps, "the more things change, the more they remain the same."

Regards,

Labelwench

[labelwench]

Hi Lorrina, and in the closed and large systems overall function, you are correct, but there's also the dis-equilibriums of many other systems, especially as exists between rich and poor populations, etc., on and on...rrr

Aren't word systems fun_we can twist and turn anything, or everything is twisted and turned_by lil' ol' nature, herself...

Hello Lloyd,

I'm tired and fading fast, but two thoughts are scampering across my scattered mind....

1. Nature uses dis-equilibrium to maintain a dynamic balance.

2. Equilibrium would seem to be a non-maintainable state, as all is in motion, constantly. Perhaps it is another concept, and only our perception of equillibrium exists.

Well, lets go for three....

3. Perhaps the universe is a closed system, on a scale that we cannot comprehend.

I do get wild and crazy ideas when I'm weary, lol.

Later,

Labelwench

[Lloyd Gillespie]

1. Nature uses dis-equilibrium to maintain a dynamic balance.
2. Equilibrium would seem to be a non-maintainable state, as all is in motion, constantly. Perhaps it is another concept, and only our perception of equillibrium exists.
3. Perhaps the universe is a closed system, on a scale that we cannot comprehend.
Labelwench

As to #3, this is what I posted in the shout box earlier today; As the entropy of finity decreases_the entropy of infinity increases_conservation laws of total entropy... This would seem to cover the large you refer to, but it's only my own theory's ideas. Just replace entropy with equilibrium and the same would seem to hold true at the absolute. But, when one is talking about these huge scales, there's a tremendous amount of room for mis-interpretations of contexts by others, so it's for what-it's-worth...?

And to your question #2, in the absolute imo, equilibrium never exists, as it's truly all changing states, so there you have it, but again context matters a great deal to manys' linguistics and interpretations of. I've always thought discussing the fundamental laws of conservation were very context sensitive, as to more than one interpretation_IMO, it's still a major problem...

And your question #1, I completely agree with...rrr

[SteveA]

(My apology ahead of time if this isn't specifically on topic, but you guys already know how I tend to drift on topics some )

Imagine a single note that's particularly great.

You play it and wow, that's the note.

And then that's it ...

Hmmm ....

Now imagine some specific idealized perfect state. If the precise position of everything can only be in a specific state, then there's no change to it and it can't exist as something in time.

We could "orbit" near it and "space fill" things close to such an ideal (can't construct a loop in time), but if it's only defined by a finite number of properties, then ultimately things diverge.

Now look at the common expression "No pain, no gain" - in a sense that's true and everything has contrasts, but that's not a very ideal state if it means every up has a down also and things are "zero sum".

But let's look at something different. Ok, we already played the cool note and can't do it again - ah, but we can play two notes at once (this is just an analogy of course).

Ah, now that's a bit better, but still a bit short lived. So what do we do next? We add a third note etc.

Now eventually we reach the "opposite" end of this spectrum because the ears can only hear a finite number of differences between tones and the final "chord" in this sequence is all notes at once (now seriously don't bother playing that one on a keyboard! LOL)

Ah, but we still have more possibilities - we can play the note with a video and we can play the note while daydreaming, and while doing all combinations of these. We can construct virtual contexts in which the note exists in anticipation etc. etc. etc.

Notice that in a sense, every other context is just as important as that single note - without the rest, the note just existed once, so in a sense, everything is the desirable property of that single note because it's the context within which it exists over time. A waterfall might be beautiful but it requires everything else to keep it running and ultimately everything influences experiences indirectly to allow the waterfall to be beautiful, so the beauty of the waterfall arises from everything (including itself).

But still there is no way to fully contain these contexts and they have to grow over time, but there are ways of preferentially biasing things so more great listening moments of the note or views of the waterfall etc. are present, but these have to be continually mixed in with other contexts and of course all these contexts can only exist as perceivable within the limits of awareness, hence awareness would be required to be able to perceive infinitely diverse contexts (such as the non-quantizable properties of the qualities (not quantities) of conscious experience).

So that's the "recipe" for maintaining both a stability as well as an eternally dynamic and infinite component - time or nature etc. doesn't let you stop too long to smell the roses, but that's ok because there's another rosebush up ahead and we can always loop back in a different context later etc. Without direction or some active involvement then life is just like moving in a straight line and you never really get anywhere in terms of desirability or quality of life and learning how to "mix things up" a bit can lead to a more efficient "recycling" process.

Anyway, that's just how I see things working - time requires an infinite. Nothing finite can contain this hence an infinite growth occurs - the center remains the same and if we zoom out far enough, it's a point that never moved or changed at all and it never really left or became anything but locally it grew and encompassed more around its center.

Now there's really no disconnection between any of these scales except they're infinite, which is something that can be seen as something dynamic and determined by selection (infinities are defined by the processes that construct them and they have no specific ends except by whatever a "higher" infinity determines for it, just like a program(mer) could write a program that generates programs that select programs etc. In a sense, the top level view is similar to a tree of forms of growth with the branches being specific details embedded within those etc. Any specific local/finite position appears chaotic and diverse, but when you zoom out over infinite or procedurally defined scales then it appears. There another view I think where the "point" in time expands to become an infinite form and it inherits something like half the properties of the space and the larger space "collapses" relative to this so that you have two infinities on the same scale but existing with complimentary aspects and the equivalent motion of that point through time is similar to a continual merging of these two complimentary spaces - that's the version I'm trying to figure out. It seems possible, but it's just complex - it's almost like mixing two liquids - yes, maybe we're some kids science experiment (that's not a good example because it implies a synchronization in time and we'd include that too - anything with a cause and effect relationship in time is part of the same system) or a drop of water an infinite ocean of experience. I don't know but it's fun trying to figure it out and there's already so much to work with it's almost pointless to look any further - there's no use for more if more is never enough).

[SB_UK]

someplace back on page 35
sorry
out of sync ... ... ...

... ... lost in the following thought:

I don't think that we can develop a fair system until the aspect of human nature which we term original sin is eradicated.

It's unfair to expect any economic system to rescue us from ourselves.

The core problem is that whilst we harbour community-unfriendly (selfish) desires -
- irregardless to conscious awareness of the nature of our desires -
satisfaction will we seek.

We've been using greed in two ! senses -
selfish greed and selfish (community) greed
- both are greedy behaviours -
both can appear selfish
- however only in selfish (community) greed does the entire community benefit as the individual himself satisfies his needs.

So ... ... two definitions for greed ... ... 'effectively bad and relatively good greed' ... ... ...

An image
Whilst original sin is with us - any trade can be likened to
a set of cancers (or viral strains) within the same body -
yes -
surviving collaboratively
~ for instance ~
- one cancer or viral strain producing byproducts for another
- that other feeding some other in a mutually beneficial arrangement.

... so - yes we'll have a form of trade (a collaborative and not competitive trade in which the cancers or viral strains are optimally aligned)
- however -
- no matter how fair the trade between viral species or cancers within the body
- perhaps each cancer using every last molecule of waste produced by the others

- however no matter how fair the trade eventually the host organism will die; the most efficient mechanism for trade which we might envision would hasten the death of the host organism (our planet).

The only workable scheme (here) would be to introduce the same efficient mechanism for trade within a perfectly balanced physiological system
- where each normal tissue is optimally balanced in its interaction with others.
One tissue performs work - generates waste products which are handled by a downstream organ.

The assessment of global trade (human physiological communication) needs to be framed within context of the global (homeostatic) system.

This is outside of the realm of possibility for economics -
economics can generate a mechanism for trade -
an efficient, fair system for trade
- however cannot define the nature of human need
(~that is~ what is traded).

If humans need a product which damages us (and hence society)
- then the most efficient economic system will see these (bad) needs met -
economics does not have the power to censor.

I'm trying to suggest that we can't expect economics to solve our problems whilst we ourselves our 'bad'.

~*~

After(we become better)wards however -
- afterwards however, the problems which we're seeking to eradicate by introduction of a fair economic system -
- become
less of a problem.

The perfect economic system (for society friendly products) being necessary though unattainable now (because of the frailty of man)
- with any economic system (afterwards)
which a morally enforced community of post-modern man consider acceptable
(the InterGillespian model (for instance) seems nice)
->->- cool .

~*~

I proof-read post-modern as post-mortem man !

- death is such a confusing term.

Have spent the last few days feeling as though my kidneys are going to explode
- today it felt as though I was being sliced in two about the equator -
sacral plaxus - kidney mid-line.

[SB_UK]

Simplifying

- human selfish individual (anti-community) desire is an attribute of an incomplete neural circuit
- an incomplete neural circuit which gives rise to the entire spectrum of damaging 'addictions'.

The entire spectrum of damaging addictive behaviours.

Whilst the circuit remains incomplete -
economics 'd do well to fail -
since (and exactly as mentioned in the previous post)

- an efficient mechanism for trade between virulent strains 'd merely results in speedier species-wide extinction.

~*~

Absolutely no criticism of LLoyd's economic model here
(my dog is in violent REM as we speak and nearly knocked my laptop flying)

Absolutely no criticism of LLoyd's economic model here
- absolutely every criticism of man
where the story of man will be written to state that there was actually
(until now)
was actually absolutely nothing that we could do to help ourselves.

~*~

There's a silver lining in there if we look in on close-up
- and that silver lining 'd be hope

- we're given the unequivocal belief from 'all of this' -
- that our 30,000 years of life as modern man has been to some agenda outside of our own powers of consciousness.

Hope -
- because it's nice to know that our future is not constrained by our current limits of imagination
- which although not too shabby
- subscribes to the largest number that exists principle ... ... ... where one can always add one.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The Old Academics vs. The New Academics...

If we compare the old to the new, what is the most glaringly obvious difference? I'll state it's deciding the new by democratic votes of what is and what is not knowledge__And the old was decided by the true mathematical logics, and this seems to apply to most fields of study. So what's to be done? Do we go with the old academics to find the truth, or do we adapt the old more sound mathematical logics onto the new? I would suggest there's far more valid and even up-to-date information and knowledge in the old, thus it would be a wiser course to use much of the old information and knowledge as a modern foundation, and definitely use the old's method of science, in all cases__Then adapt the new facts and real knowledge truths of, to the old methods and facts. But I warn, deciding what's true of the new, is one massive problem, as it's been so decided by democracy views__lacking mathematical and logical validity__it's quite a treacherous road to hoe...

Just take the two probabilities that presently exist__The sound mathematical probability logic of facts, and the unsound probability theories of mathematics and conflated logics.

.Probability / | \ Probability
...........Logic / | \ Logic
.Academics / | \ Academics
............Truth / | \ Truth
Knowledge / | \ Knowledge
Democracy / | \ Democracy
_________rrr

Hope is Hope...

[Mikal]

Simplifying

- human selfish individual (anti-community) desire is an attribute of an incomplete neural circuit
- an incomplete neural circuit which gives rise to the entire spectrum of damaging 'addictions'.

The entire spectrum of damaging addictive behaviours.

Whilst the circuit remains incomplete -
economics 'd do well to fail -
since (and exactly as mentioned in the previous post)

- an efficient mechanism for trade between virulent strains 'd merely results in speedier species-wide extinction.

~*~

Absolutely no criticism of LLoyd's economic model here
(my dog is in violent REM as we speak and nearly knocked my laptop flying)

Absolutely no criticism of LLoyd's economic model here
- absolutely every criticism of man
where the story of man will be written to state that there was actually
(until now)
was actually absolutely nothing that we could do to help ourselves.

~*~

There's a silver lining in there if we look in on close-up
- and that silver lining 'd be hope

- we're given the unequivocal belief from 'all of this' -
- that our 30,000 years of life as modern man has been to some agenda outside of our own powers of consciousness.

Hope -
- because it's nice to know that our future is not constrained by our current limits of imagination
- which although not too shabby
- subscribes to the largest number that exists principle ... ... ... where one can always add one.

Hi SB....there is no way we can have a sound economy when society is based on the premise of "encourage human selfish individual desire" into the blanket pursuit of self-centered and unconsciencenable power over others.

In our kind of society our economy is set up to benefit those who earn their daily bread through chemically poisoning the biology of the masses. Its a pretty sick system and could never have functioned in the environement of a "community" which is the essence of a whole group of people focused on the good of the public so the whole system kind of got yanked into the thrusts of globalism.

How could we have prevented the past when the poisoning of our biology is to deter the development of that very neural circuit you speak of...to be conscious of what is happening to us and what is being done to us takes to be wholly conscious and that is a little like a combined orchestra....the playing is not complete without the entire orchestra taking place...

Yeh we got a pretty sick society, a terrible economy because of it but now we see it and one can only change what they see and cognize.....there is hope!!!


Regards Mikal

[labelwench]

Well Gentlemen,

Personally, I have faith, that whether we are aware of it or not, nature is still running the show, although she loans us the keys to the car on occasion; the Ford mind you, not the Porsche.

A week or so ago, on the full moon, we had a clear sky with a halo, usually indicative of precipitation and a relative forecast for the weather for 7-10 days. By morning we had rain, and by the time I was driving home, we had slush on the road. The same weather has continued through since Monday. Some things still work as they always have.

Any of you lads know anything about the properties of milk? Real milk, as it comes from a grass fed, hormone free cow?

The cream will always rise to the top.

There are some laws of nature that we cannot ammend nor append, and it shall be interesting to see how quickly we learn the lessons of the coming decade.

As for the money thing SB__UK, it shall always be evolving. I for one, do not expect to see any system discovered that will not need to continue to evolve and change.

It suddenly occurred to me, that in the last four + years that I have been working, I have not earned or seen any 'money'.

Mere numbers are posted to my bank account electronically, and then I spend it using a card which has a security chip. The only times I have seen cash are when I withdrew some for gifts and sundries, and then I hardly recognized it, with all of the new security features and subtle changes of coloring.

I wasn't sure it was legal tender!

Regards,

Labelwench

[Mikal]

Hi LW…ironic you should mention hormone free cows!
Do you realize that our younger generations are living in what is called “the state of arrested development?” What does it mean? Well it means their biology is hyper-developing to maturity before their brain system circuits can develop to any level of maturity that would allow them to maturely handle their own racing hormonal life.

Everyone wonders why this new generation is developed like women and men by eleven and twelve. Well when a societies’ food industry takes to injecting bovine hormones into its beef and poultry industry for the purpose of fast production to meet supply and demand, the hormones are taken into the whole system of the produce and what remains in muscles and blood simply becomes absorbed into the food we eat and feed our children.

Hence we have a whole generation caught in the state of “arrested development” and I am quite sure I do not have to graphically depict the problems surfacing from the issue of industrializing our food supply for the purposes of greed…
As you say LW… you work behind enemy lines…so do I and it has its benefits as far as being able to figure our problems out….


Regards Mikal