East Meets West Logic...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

More 'Emmy' awards, with perhaps some duplication…

So, where did the laws of physics come from? They came from ‘nothing’. They follow from the ‘void’ out of which the universe spontaneously arose uncaused. These laws look exactly as they should if they were not handed down from anywhere!

Hi Austin, great posts. My only point of contention would be the above paragraph. Laws can't come from 'nothing' as 'nutin' produces 'nutin', so you'd have to have a scientific explanation here, and that forces you to 'sumptin'__so what's your 'sumptin'...? Einstein already proved 'voids' do not exist, as he stated so so, "Everywhere is field". That leaves you with further explanation__as to the impossibility of 'void', imo... And spontaneously_wooooooe..._that leaves you back in the magic of god-land__so you certainly need revison here... And uncaused? More magic__and science doesn't accept magic... Looks like you still have a lot toooooo much handed down from somewhere, to work out__What say you...rrr

[labelwench]

Must have been traversing in another direction to have missed this rather important acknowledgement.

Resource management is a hot button in the Yukon, as many people depend directly on the land for their income, trappers, farmers, hunting outfitters, wilderness tourism, mining, fishing, to name a few.

Responsibility for land and natural resources is divided between the different levels of government, and the multiple levels of legislation poses a degree of difficulty for all.

Recognition that the users of the land have insight into their best management, affirms what the first nations people have known all along.

We owe our continued existence to land, sky and water. Time that we all did our part in properly honouring the mediums of of life.

Ostrom, a political scientist at Indiana University, showed how common resources — forests, fisheries, oil fields or grazing lands — can be managed successfully by the people who use them, rather than by governments or private companies.

"What we have ignored is what citizens can do and the importance of real involvement of the people involved — versus just having somebody in Washington ... make a rule," Ostrom said during a brief session with reporters in Bloomington.

Ostrom said it's an honor to be the first woman to win a Nobel Prize in economics — and promised that she won't be the last. She said people discouraged her from seeking a Ph.D. when she applied for graduate school but she loved studying economics.

Ostrom, also the founding director of Arizona State University's Center for the Study of Institutional Diversity, devoted her career to studying the interaction of people and natural resources. One notable publication she wrote in 1990 examined both successful and unsuccessful ways of governing natural resources — forests, fisheries, oil fields, grazing lands and irrigation systems — that are used by individuals.

Ostrom's work challenged conventional wisdom, showing that common resources can be successfully managed without privatization or government regulation.

The whole article is found at...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33275953...s_and_economy/

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Yes Lorrina, this is also a big issue here in the state of Maine, just as it is in Alaska, and all regions of the globe. The trouble is it's not only the invasion of gov. that's the problem, it's all the falsely-educated non-residents that move into our state, obtain positions on all the governing bodies, at the local levels, and know nothing about the habits and needs of the local people. My eldest son is a Maine State hunting and fishing guide, and these pinheaded imports(out-of-staters) having the educations to snowball the locals are destroying the land values and uses in ways unimaginable just 30 years ago. If only they understood the needs of a poor state's people to survive, by way of nature's natural resources, but their only interest seems to be to make Maine the same type of over-insane environment they came from...

"Zoning__Treason for reason...!!!"rrr

Btw, thanks for the article link. I was familiar with her recently winning/sharing the Nobel Prize in economics. Another along her same ideas is Herman Daly, an environmental economist, and favorite of mine...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33275953/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/ Ostrom...

Enjoy a bit o' music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGkE5g7_jAg&feature=fvw
Enjoy a bit o' math: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRM4v0O29o

Must have been traversing in another direction to have missed this rather important acknowledgement.

Resource management is a hot button in the Yukon, as many people depend directly on the land for their income, trappers, farmers, hunting outfitters, wilderness tourism, mining, fishing, to name a few.

Responsibility for land and natural resources is divided between the different levels of government, and the multiple levels of legislation poses a degree of difficulty for all.

Recognition that the users of the land have insight into their best management, affirms what the first nations people have known all along.

We owe our continued existence to land, sky and water. Time that we all did our part in properly honouring the mediums of of life.




The whole article is found at...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33275953...s_and_economy/

[labelwench]

We deal with the same type of frustration by 'imported intelligence' here, also. Perhaps one should have to be a resident of five years tenure before one is allowed to be in a position of making regulations that affect the lives of others?

Though, unless one goes out on the land and experiences life at all of these venues, one would still be lacking in understanding of the broader impacts of policy and legislation.

All of our energy and technology likewise comes from the raw materials of the land. The air and water of the globe is all connected. I breathe the same air as the did the first mammal, merely recycled many times over. The water that comes from my tap, though it is now groundwater from my well, has likely travelled farther than myself, in the form of precipitation and weather, that circles the globe.

Life does not come in a package, people.

You are standing on the very thing that keeps you alive. Think before you spit or toss your trash. What goes around, comes back around.

Later,

Lorrina

[SteveA]

Yes Lorrina, this is also a big issue here in the state of Maine, just as it is in Alaska, and all regions of the globe. The trouble is it's not only the invasion of gov. that's the problem, it's all the falsely-educated non-residents that move into our state, obtain positions on all the governing bodies, at the local levels, and know nothing about the habits and needs of the local people...

That's actually does seem the definition of most governments nowadays - a group of people possibly a thousand or more miles a way trying to manage everyone else private affairs.

Consider on one hand you said it's not a problem of government, yet government was still the social institution (a tolerance of coercion and violence - we generally don't tolerate private individuals making threats at gunpoint) that enabled the problems.

Consider that the concept of non-local is a bit abused. Would someone a hundred miles away, yet still within the same state be considered "local" for purposes of determining laws within a small community?

Physically governments do not exist. They only exist in social terms as culture, custom or belief. A government has no more influence than what people belief it to possess.

The only time that force appears tolerated is in defense. And what defines a defensive action versus an aggressive one? It would be nice to have a simple black and white boundary to draw but that doesn't appear to be a luxury we have, though I tend to see it as preserving ones vested interests. (Obvious ones own health or the products of their labor etc. are things in which it would appear forceful defense is justified, otherwise we have the possible situation of a single bad apple ruining the entire harvest)

But obviously when we look at typical government actions they're generally far removed from such an ideal and we have people trying to manage affairs and using force or threats of it and punishments and fines etc. in affairs they have no vested interest in (or even if they do, it's a figurative drop in the bucket relative to the parties directly affected)

Replace the concept of government with self defense of ones vested interests and the rest should be up to people to coordinate between themselves freely. (I'm saying that there aren't a ton of details as to the specifics between people that arise from this view, but it's less than we currently have and it works much better in the long run).

[labelwench]

Replace the concept of government with self defense of ones vested interests and the rest should be up to people to coordinate between themselves freely. (I'm saying that there aren't a ton of details as to the specifics between people that arise from this view, but it's less than we currently have and it works much better in the long run
Originally posted by SteveA

Interestingly, government is very much about the 'self defense of one's vested interest' and has been for too long.

We are among the most over governed populations, with something like 1 government employee (city, territorial and federal governments combined) for every 4 or 5 people.

Most people desire a government job, as they afford good wages, great benefits, paid vacations, retirement plans and job security.

Which is exactly why they are a vested interest.

So why don't I go and get one of those prizes instead of my present demented scheduled of nights and half days?

I'm a free radical, lol, and in this manner I can annoy them all equally.

[SteveA]

Interestingly, government is very much about the 'self defense of one's vested interest' and has been for too long.

Yes, in the U.S. now I think it's over 50% of the land is owned by governments local, state and federal in one for or another (and I'm rather certain that most all of this "public" land is not actually available for public use at all).

We are among the most over governed populations, with something like 1 government employee (city, territorial and federal governments combined) for every 4 or 5 people.

Wow, that's worse than here in California. We're at 1 out of 7 or so now.

Most people desire a government job, as they afford good wages, great benefits, paid vacations, retirement plans and job security.

Yes, there's a lot of this here as well - a lot of people want to ride in the wagon and not enough want to pull it (and oftentimes the ones pulling it are portrayed as the bad guys too - gee, that's a great way to inspire a horse ).

Which is exactly why they are a vested interest.

Yes, but it's not really a vested interest. It's an addiction to something they didn't invest their efforts into.

So why don't I go and get one of those prizes instead of my present demented scheduled of nights and half days?

You would not be the first. I think we should all do it, call the bluff, and rebuild something better after the crash.

I'm a free radical, lol, and in this manner I can annoy them all equally.

Yes, you're positively ionizing

(In case you weren't able to play it before)
http://www.rhapsody.com/kate-and-ann...de/lyrics.html

[labelwench]

(In case you weren't able to play it before)
http://www.rhapsody.com/kate-and-ann...de/lyrics.htm
Originally posted by SteveA

This linkis only available in the United States, I am advised. I was able to see the lyrics, though.

Cute.

[SteveA]

This linkis only available in the United States, I am advised. I was able to see the lyrics, though.

Cute.

Yes, I thought it matched the forum quite well

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The Central Innate Natural Geometric Symmetries of Common Sense…

How imbalanced are we, as a disparate peoples__compared to nature’s, and the universe’s given geometric symmetries? Imo, the greatest problem in the world is the asymmetric evolution into academic totalitarianism__of their many powerful pinheaded ideas_inculcated in their multitudes of anti-symmetries, while the true and possible natural innate symmetries are being ignored. I admit, this is a rather powerful statement, but they have drifted so far from their natural innate symmetries of common sense, in all fields__that their over-arching reach seems to me like a monster gobbling the entire world__as per last September’s collapse of much of their intellectus_yet they realize it not__and the really sad thing is_neither do most average citizens. What’s to be done to awaken this sleeping world__to this massive patch of wool being pulled over their broken eyes and minds…?

If we take a ground level look at the greater world, what do we really see…? I awake each morning to a peaceful look at nature, just outside my door. I’m in a campground on the side of a mountain, overlooking a lake, with another set of mountains on the other side of this crystal clear lake_It’s a truly amazing view, with eagles, crows, owls, hawks and all manner of chipmunks, squirrels and smaller birds and animals all around, all living in nature’s self-designed symmetry. None of her creatures takes more than it needs, and just adds so much beauty, it’s difficult to use words to describe it totally. The lake is usually flat calm, early in the morning, and with no wind I clearly hear nature talking to me, with a voice so serene it’s almost indescribable. I couldn’t ask for more, when just contemplating nature, herself…

Yet what of man’s entrance into this pristine clime…? The ground level look at the greater world, with mans presence is considerably different. Here I see the poorer peoples of the planet being pushed of the lands, streams, lakes and their natural hunting, trapping and fishing grounds, whether on-shore or off-shore__By a voracious money system that knows no bounds for caging the otherwise free peoples and spirits of the lands. The sacred innate symmetries of our natural spirits and common sense natures are being ignored by this man-made vulture of a system__that would scare the teeth out of a hen. The sacred symmetries of nature have been traded for the insecurities of this asymmetric cage of international money, pushing all to the extreme positions of either defending their personal gains, or the other group attacking these same over-ambitioned gains, setting up the personal and political asymmetries between all peoples of the planet. The asymmetric left and right are completely ignoring the innate symmetric center path of nature’s example, for what they think is transcendence out__when in fact true peace is only found through transc(i)ndence in__to nature’s pure center of her natural given logical truths, where one may find the middle way path to true liberty and happiness…

Just take a look at the heights of histories’ mentalities, and what do we find…? Oh, we have a host of ideas pushed, and ideals ignored, but why so much angst and dishonest debate between all these schools of thought…? Have they lost their center…? Did they ever know their centers…? Have people existed who once knew the true centers of humanity’s ideals…? The funny answer is yes; many have lived and taught these centers of human actions all throughout history, from the religious schools, to the philosophic and other scientific schools of thought__so why are we so lost today…? Might it be we ourselves can’t find our own centers__to thoroughly see these other great minds’ centers…? Over the last 50+ years, even the greatest of academic schools of thought have overly criticized every other school of thought namable, so that now when our young students and researchers study, they find nothing but arguments against all ideas ever proposed__So, is it any wonder people may be deluded out of their own innate centers’ natural securities…?

I think everyone needs to be given back their central standpoint model, or beliefs securities, or whatever else you may want to call this natural innate balance… I call it the innate aesthetic/esthetic symmetric model of nature__nothing complex_just the ability to see nature herself, as our purest ground of the natural old geometry__we all once worshipped. If we were all able to see through all the false asymmetries preached by all the academic ideologies, political ideologies, theocratic ideologies, philosophic ideologies, and all the other false systems you may name any way you choose__we all just may find that central symmetric standpoint of copying nature’s true ground, may come in very handy. If we have this true and balanced ground__to view all these imbalanced ideas and ideologies, that just evolve into the world’s many totalitarianisms__after long enough use and belief; we may be able to once again see our truest ideals of positive ambitions and actions’ paths__Just maybe…

Some may think they have discovered this central balance already, but all I need ask is; “Are you against something different than your own beliefs, other than what is commonly considered bad for all?” and what will your response be…? And then when I ask; “What are you truly for, as a supporting over-arching system of planetary life-support?”, what will your response be…? Then you may truly know, whether you have truly attained, the central innate symmetry position or not. I fear many have deluded themselves into thinking their truly left and right asymmetries are really their personal symmetries__when in fact it’s just another egoistic evolution toward another totalitarianism, over the natural peoples of the land…

We must figure our way out of the voracious man-made money cage of massive insecurities entrapping all__and into the true innate logical symmetries__and not the false and delusional transcendences, abstractions and existentialisms that merely evolve us all into our overly-oppressive totalitarianisms. Let’s not be transcending against something__Let’s be trnasc(i)nding for something__For that better and best ordered mind and world. Please help us all abandon mans self-inflicted asymmetries__Let’s find a new aesthetic/esthetic, truly symmetric morality…rrr