East Meets West Logic...

[austintorn@aol.com]

So, where did the laws of physics come from? They came from ‘nothing’. They follow from the ‘void’ out of which the universe spontaneously arose uncaused. These laws look exactly as they should if they were not handed down from anywhere!

Well, let’s remove that part for now, until I figure out where the words came from exactly, although maybe from here:

These four space-time symmetries described above are just the natural symmetries of a universe with no matter…

The laws are just what they should be if the universe appeared from an initial state in which there was no matter…


My search for the TOE was aided by the search for God (finding none) and vice-versa, too.

I first ran into Emmy when trying to see if the laws, morals, fine-tuning, cause, tine-zero imprint, etc. of the universe were natural, rather than extra-, or super-.

Since the Theity is said to be everywhere and to intervene everywhere, the the lack of evidence that is supposed to be there would truly become evidence of absence.

This research went beyond the obvious case that the supernatural beliefs had no ground in to begin with, just hanging in the air as unfounded. While that is still the case, it didn’t stop people from preaching theory as fact and so my research continued. So, now we have such religious proclamations being two steps removed from reality, one step to ignore what is, and the other to pronounce what isn’t.

In short, I found everything to be natural. Morals, values, and civil laws came from humanity. Physical laws were naturally explained by Emmy. No time-zero Imprint was found, but, rather, just the opposite: chaos. Biblical revelations, those not written after the fact, did not come to pass. An atom gave a different answer every time we measured it, behavior apparently causeless. Alain Aspect showed that there were no hidden variables within the quantum realm, unless superluminal. The FS, too, having nothing prior to it, must be causeless, astoundingly revealing that there was no Creator of any kind, even a Deity, since nothing was ever created in the first place! This cuts off all other possible ‘God’ arguments at the source.

The superToe is simply that all was causeless, as causes beneath causes cannot go on forever, and as Nothing cannot produce anything.

The regular Toe is how things function beyond that, given the original causeless FS, energy, or quantum possibility, whichever mechanism it is. I don’t get into those nuts and bolts stuff too much.

[SteveA]

The Central Innate Natural Geometric Symmetries of Common Sense…

How imbalanced are we, as a disparate peoples__compared to nature’s, and the universe’s given geometric symmetries? Imo, the greatest problem in the world is the asymmetric evolution into academic totalitarianism__of their many powerful pinheaded ideas_inculcated in their multitudes of anti-symmetries, while the true and possible natural innate symmetries are being ignored. I admit, this is a rather powerful statement, but they have drifted so far from their natural innate symmetries of common sense, in all fields__that their over-arching reach seems to me like a monster gobbling the entire world__as per last September’s collapse of much of their intellectus_yet they realize it not__and the really sad thing is_neither do most average citizens. What’s to be done to awaken this sleeping world__to this massive patch of wool being pulled over their broken eyes and minds…?

I completely agree, though I'd say the ideal is sort of a contrast between symmetry and asymmetry.

In a sense, every single thing is unique, but stationary things exist because of asymmetry - every sentence occurs within a specific context, but none of it is alive until we add motion and that motion is in a sense the symmetry - everything moves, none of it is identical.

The asymmetries and uniqueness of identities are a value, but the question is over how the motion occurs - things either attract or repel, the motions occur because of benefits to interactions or the motions occur as attempts to escape and flee from them, but nature or time is still holding it all together and noone's really going anywhere in the long run until we achieve some coordination (and it needs to be via. attraction and benefit for each unique thing).

Ultimately we need to learn how to coordinate via. attraction and then we can begin to close off the need for external time, energy and unknowns and make the place as everyone desires it to be and not something that drifts along waiting for a purpose. It's the internal purposes and direction that's needed and it needs to be a common direction too - I think that's where we're at now.

(#1 "technology" on my list is a big happy family of humanity ... we don't really need any more toys, until we learn how to play nice and I think once we've got some practice at that things get really fun! ... but of course this takes a bit more work than solely a chat on the net)

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Austin, pardon me for stating this, but all I see you propagating is another egoistic religion here. You are stating the impossible religion of 'Nothing' which every sensible mind knows, science__at all levels has already proven impossible, and your causeless cause is not science__but is a simple religion in a new skirt.

Science, at the highest knowable velocities; at the highest temperatures; at the lowest temperatures; at the highest and lowest magnetisms; at the highest and lowest voltages; and any other known state of physics__has always found field/s/em-waves present__everywhere. So there is no such entity as a 'State of Nothing or No Thing' anywhere possible or ever found. That leaves what you state as nothing other than your own false private language religion_with the self being the high priest of just another false-theism.

So you'll have to do better, as sound logic knows Aspect to be unproven, and sound logic further knows there absolutely has to be cause, even if eternal perpetual infinite cause, and further there absolutely has to be fundamental substance, or there could be no thing, and sound logic absolutely knows__Things Exist...rrr

P.s.
You may find the key of understanding physics in the varried voltages/spins of the myriad of em-waves...

So, where did the laws of physics come from? They came from ‘nothing’. They follow from the ‘void’ out of which the universe spontaneously arose uncaused. These laws look exactly as they should if they were not handed down from anywhere!

Well, let’s remove that part for now, until I figure out where the words came from exactly, although maybe from here:

These four space-time symmetries described above are just the natural symmetries of a universe with no matter…[theism]

The laws are just what they should be if the universe appeared from an initial state in which there was no matter…[theism]


My search for the TOE was aided by the search for God (finding none) and vice-versa, too.

I first ran into Emmy when trying to see if the laws, morals, fine-tuning, cause, tine-zero imprint, etc. of the universe were natural, rather than extra-, or super-.

Since the Theity is said to be everywhere and to intervene everywhere, the the lack of evidence that is supposed to be there would truly become evidence of absence.[Your personal private language theism, again...]

This research went beyond the obvious case that the supernatural beliefs had no ground in to begin with, just hanging in the air as unfounded. While that is still the case, it didn’t stop people from preaching theory as fact and so my research continued. So, now we have such religious proclamations being two steps removed from reality, one step to ignore what is, and the other to pronounce what isn’t.

In short, I found everything to be natural. Morals, values, and civil laws came from humanity. Physical laws were naturally explained by Emmy. No time-zero Imprint was found, but, rather, just the opposite: chaos.[I find no chaos, except people advocating what is clearly not...] Biblical revelations, those not written after the fact, did not come to pass. An atom gave a different answer every time we measured it, behavior apparently causeless.[Personal theism again...] Alain Aspect showed that there were no hidden variables within the quantum realm, unless superluminal.[Unproven theism...] The FS, too, having nothing prior to it, must be causeless,[False logic] astoundingly revealing that there was no Creator of any kind, even a Deity, since nothing was ever created in the first place! This cuts off all other possible ‘God’ arguments at the source.[I don't know why you are bothering to post about God in an a-theist's thread...]

The superToe is simply that all was causeless,[baseless logic and false...] as causes beneath causes cannot go on forever, and as Nothing cannot produce anything.

The regular Toe is how things function beyond that, given the original causeless FS, energy, or quantum possibility, whichever mechanism it is. I don’t get into those nuts and bolts stuff too much.[You already have shown your true colors to be baseless statements, and extreme falsehoods, sorry...]

[Lloyd Gillespie]

If you may have noticed Steve, I was only using symmetry and asymmetry, as the comparative conditions of nature and humanity, and not as the technical symmetries/asymmetries of physics, per say... Economics has defined and used these terms for decades now, but only generally, as applied to the asymmetries and nearer symmetries of nations' actions and conditions.

Just thought I'd clarify my meanings, but thanks for the ideas... I think human attraction will only come from all seeing and bringing their own true central symmetries more in line with nature's...rrr

I completely agree, though I'd say the ideal is sort of a contrast between symmetry and asymmetry.

In a sense, every single thing is unique, but stationary things exist because of asymmetry - every sentence occurs within a specific context, but none of it is alive until we add motion and that motion is in a sense the symmetry - everything moves, none of it is identical.

The asymmetries and uniqueness of identities are a value, but the question is over how the motion occurs - things either attract or repel, the motions occur because of benefits to interactions or the motions occur as attempts to escape and flee from them, but nature or time is still holding it all together and noone's really going anywhere in the long run until we achieve some coordination (and it needs to be via. attraction and benefit for each unique thing).

Ultimately we need to learn how to coordinate via. attraction and then we can begin to close off the need for external time, energy and unknowns and make the place as everyone desires it to be and not something that drifts along waiting for a purpose. It's the internal purposes and direction that's needed and it needs to be a common direction too - I think that's where we're at now.

(#1 "technology" on my list is a big happy family of humanity ... we don't really need any more toys, until we learn how to play nice and I think once we've got some practice at that things get really fun! ... but of course this takes a bit more work than solely a chat on the net)

[SteveA]

Austin, pardon me for stating this, but all I see you propagating is another egoistic religion here. You are stating the impossible religion of 'Nothing' which every sensible mind knows science__at all levels has already proven impossible, and your causeless cause is not science__but is a simple religion in a new skirt.

Science, at the highest knowable velocities; at the highest temperatures; at the lowest temperatures; at the highest and lowest magnetisms; at the highest and lowest voltages; and any other known state of physics__has always found field/s/em-waves present__everywhere. So there is no such entity as a 'State of Nothing or No Thing' anywhere possible or ever found. That leaves what you state as nothing other than your own false private language religion_with the self being the high priest of just another false-theism.

So you'll have to do better, as sound logic knows Aspect to be unproven, and sound logic further knows there absolutely has to be cause, even if eternal perpetual infinite cause, and further there absolutely has to be fundamental substance, or there could be no thing, and sound logic absolutely knows__Things Exist...rrr

P.s.
You may find the key of understanding physics in the varried voltages/spins of the myriad of em-waves...

Very well put. There is no spirituality or purpose until one discovers it. Drifting aimlessly might be good for learning, but it's not the purpose in life and if one looks for a purpose, they can find it and it only adds to the experiences of life. If gives things additional contexts that have meaning and value beyond just the numbers - physics, consciousness, emotions, intelligence and logic etc. etc. etc. all coexist and once you have the right perspective they all line up and point to a very beautiful horizon

[austintorn@aol.com]

As stated, and now restated, I don't believe in Nothing, since it cannot be there.

Is the FS, having been there always, causeless or… if not, what is its cause? (Then making FS not fundamental)

So, again, no Nothing doing anything, and, as already stated, God research led to TOE ideas and vice-versa.

It remains that there had to be a causeless initial 'something' necessarily of little or no order.

Here, religion and science converge, religion looking for a perfect order…

Also, we can revoke the 'no matter' part, for now, but it can be created, like mass, from energy, so, no miracle there.

So, Lloyd, whence FS came?

If FS is truly fundamental, then there was nothing prior to it to give it rhyme or reason, design or direction, order, purpose, etc.

By the way, I am a non-theist. I don't believe in God in any way, shape, or form—and there are many. You have to read more carefully. God was not found anywhere.

Can anyone show me the super- over the natural?

(Other than it is invisible and produces no physical effects)

Also, there is a lot of waste in the universe. How come?

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Austin, there's no way to talk sense with you, because you are using the God-mind un-knowingly. Lose the non-logical/non-mathematical/non-geometric ego of theistic assumptions and conjectures, and maybe scientific communication would be possible. I'm not going to entertain nonsense...rrr

Now I see why Arthur jumped all over you_no ground...

As stated, and now restated, I don't believe in Nothing, since it cannot be there.[Double negative__So you are saying you do believe in 'Nothing']

Is the FS, having been there always, causeless or… if not, what is its cause? (Then making FS not fundamental)[It bootstraps itself hydrodynamically at lowest entropy decay state, appx. 10^137 yrs. hence...]

So, again, no Nothing doing anything, and, as already stated, God research led to TOE ideas and vice-versa.[Where do you get such nonsense...?]

It remains that there had to be a causeless initial 'something' necessarily of little or no order.[Conflation of ideas and logics...]

Here, religion and science converge, religion looking for a perfect order…[You got a problem with perfect order__see a doctor...]

Also, we can revoke the 'no matter' part, for now, but it can be created, like mass, from energy, so, no miracle there.[Matter is never created__It's eternal__Only state changes exist__Eternally... Cause is eternal perpetual hydrodynamics, at finity's entropy limits__Natural condition of wave mechanics decay's decelleration__Stars die, and waves of lower voltages are left, on and on, to lowest wave voltages/motions, then the self-acting hydrodynamic state kicks in__Then recycle of finity, from infinity__Future very distant state tense...]

So, Lloyd, whence FS came?[Humpty-Dumpty]

If FS is truly fundamental, then there was nothing prior to it to give it rhyme or reason, design or direction, order, purpose, etc.[Says many a moon-bat...]

By the way, I am a non-theist. I don't believe in God in any way, shape, or form—and there are many. You have to read more carefully. God was not found anywhere.[Neither was Austin...]

Can anyone show me the super- over the natural?[I got a hammer__Present your head...]

(Other than it is invisible and produces no physical effects)[Woooohoooo ghosts everywhere...?]

Also, there is a lot of waste in the universe. How come?[Remove thyself...]

[austintorn@aol.com]

I'm not going to entertain nonsense...

Lloyd cannot answer.


No need for me to post any more.

I get it that you have no answer for the FS.

Any don't be silly about syntax and semantics. I don't believe in a total lack of anything anywhere at any time. Cut the crap.

You have the same deep emotional problems as Arthur, thinking that bashing can add value to your cause. It doesn't. By the way, Arthur heaped on everyone who posted. Pay attention.

Your insulting manner just took a while to resurface, since you came back, first appearing recently upon Fredrick, as noted.

Bet you can't return without more yelling, or, if you fake it, hold it for very long.

Try answering if FS was causeless or not, along with the rest of the valid questions, other than Humpty-Dumpty, which I know means cracking and being put back together again, but that was not the thrust of the questions.

And put on some glasses that can tell you 'God' versus not, 'something' vs. Nothing.
I'll read it sometime but won't be responding soon.

And, so, Aspect showed nothing?

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Austin, take your non-intellect somewhere else__Go pest Arthur. I do not wish to speak with someone who does not wish to understand__ground. It's America__I do have that right...rrr

Posts #1 to #13 & #16 explained everything I'm working on, along with the rest of this thread, and the Philosophy thread at Link...

I'm not going to entertain nonsense...

No need for me to post any more.

[labelwench]

Gentlemen,

Please accept this song as my contribution today.

Very tired, and the labour intensive Saturday night label run pending.

As always,

Lorrina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kzeCjluvxU