East Meets West Logic...

[SteveA]

Gentlemen,

Please accept this song as my contribution today.

Very tired, and the labour intensive Saturday night label run pending.

As always,

Lorrina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kzeCjluvxU

Yes guys, I think Lorrina put it best

Thank you much

As always too,
Steve

[leskey]

We must figure our way out of the voracious man-made money cage of massive insecurities entrapping all__and into the true innate logical symmetries__and not the false and delusional transcendences, abstractions and existentialisms that merely evolve us all into our overly-oppressive totalitarianisms. Let’s not be transcending against something__Let’s be trnasc(i)nding for something__For that better and best ordered mind and world. Please help us all abandon mans self-inflicted asymmetries__Let’s find a new aesthetic/esthetic, truly symmetric morality…rrr

People don't want to listen...don't want to know.

Unless we're catapulted by catastrophe into a crisis, there is only repetitive oration and a life of example...altruism - unselfishly serving one another, sending out the ripples into our immediate community...the success found only in perseverence.

And, isn't that what we'd do in a crisis, anyhow?

Ooops! Maybe there is something to 'religion'...afterall?

Interlude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQXL_evOL6M

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Possibilities of Intelligent Compassion...

Thanks Leskey, you are very perceptive, and your song matches the global situation of people to a tee... The song is the very area of, and center of the investigation of questions and answers I've carried on, over the last 37 years, and that is, "Why can everyone talk and no-one hear?"(all tongues and no ears) and, "How is it possible for intellect, heart, reason, logic, compassion, empathy, love, soul and emotions, etc., to truly communicate?" "Is it even possible for our own minds, to even hear its own truths, above the din of ignorance?"

I still can't help but feel there is a key to this global madness of being caught in the energies of all others talking and rambling tongues, to find that jewel of inter-communication_which truly carries content__instead of more noise and nonsense than knowledge. So I keep transc(i)nding ever deeper into the gulf of the mind, in search of that magical voice. Will it be found? Maybe not... But I will not stop seeking it...

The key seems to be as it was revealed on the old thread of Tina's, "What is the root of evil?", and it was found to be what people perceive to be, "That which is thought good." And I couldn't agree more... At this moment, and for some years now, I've seen the problem as, "Too much respect for senseless noise and ignorance."__in the modern world of what's called 'Post-Modernism'. Now, I'm not stating this to be mean, though many will take it so, as what I've seen of all those souls lost to the energies of possibilities and impossibilities__is, "Most everybody wants love, respect and compassion for their self-inflicted ignorances", though I realize they know not of__their being trapped in the energies of the global flow. And the real problem is all public and private media are banded together as an army__to enforce this mediocrity__what they think is 'good'__when in fact it's really the true 'evil' of over-defending a mediocrity so pervasive, it'll destroy the world, unless it is truly unveiled__But, the question__How?

How would someone, or anyone go about breaking through this modern veil of noise and ignorance, to expose what to most people's thinking is the truly 'good'? To me, it's always been the problem of "Go along to get along", and therein lies the demon of over-respecting and over-defending the 'demon' of truth's and intelligence's destruction. It's that over-respect for personal feelings and false ideas, that's taken too far__which actually destroys free-thinking and new truthful and honest ideas, in favor of the well-respected over-followers' noise and nonsense__which is created because no-one is allowed to 'Rock The Boat'.

To solve the world's problems, as massive as they truly are__the boat needs complete over-turning__thus drowning all the noise and ignorance__So truth may have its turn on the mic...

Thanks Leskey,
No offense intended...rrr

P.s.
Here's a thought Leskey, Lw, SB_UK, and others have triggered in my mind__One's audience is not an individual__It's the global 'Flow...'rrr

People don't want to listen...don't want to know.

Unless we're catapulted by catastrophe into a crisis, there is only repetitive oration and a life of example...altruism - unselfishly serving one another, sending out the ripples into our immediate community...the success found only in perseverence.

And, isn't that what we'd do in a crisis, anyhow?

Ooops! Maybe there is something to 'religion'...afterall?

Interlude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQXL_evOL6M

[SteveA]

To solve the world's problems, as massive as they truly are__the boat needs complete over-turning__thus drowning all the noise and ignorance__So truth may have its turn on the mic...

And I think the trick at that point is to turn the public microphone off and listen inside - people are afraid to be free and natural because they've been taught that they're only safe when controlled ... but who does this controlling and what are we being protected from? Ourselves?

In the end, any politican can say or promise whatever they like but they're not running the show and they can't do anything more than anyone else (and the average Joe and Jane generally have a better idea of how "real" life works )

Here's the trick - noone even needs to ask to be free! You already are!!! (So much fun with such simple illusions)

It's interesting when you look at it because ultimately there really isn't any way to enforce a tyranny unless people accept it. Every act to try to enforce it is just a cost. Fear is the only thing that powers it, it has no physical existence except in the mind.

[labelwench]

Nature is my muse, and horses are the species that I have had most opportunity to learn from, so please bear with me through yet another horse analogy, and I believe you will determine the relevance.

When a foal is born, far less of it's behavior is instinctual, than earlier presumed. Aside from the suckling reflex, and the rising to it's feet, and even those, I'm seeing, are helped by the dam.

One foal was born inside the barn, away from danger and distraction, and I was with the mare through the whole birthing.

As she lay on her side, with the foal's hind feet still inside the birth canal, and resting from her labour, the blood from the placenta was being transferred to the foal.

The little wet head, ears plastered back along it's neck, trembled as it opened and blinked it's eyes. The mare began a quiet crooning sound, and soon the foals' ears began to move, and nostrils flared, as it began to breathe of it's own accord.

The mare crooned for several minutes, and then the foal emitted a small 'eeeeckkkk' sound, and repeated this sound at intervals, as it was discovering it's vocal cords.

As the foal began to try it's legs, the mare arose, breaking the umbilical cord in the process, and the strong foal was on it's legs, splayed out for balance, on the first try.

Now the mare began to rub and lick the foal, and soon the foal was licking it's lips in emulation of it's dam, and sampling it's own tongue. The mare reached round with her long neck and guided the foal, by gentle nudges toward her udder, which was some time in the finding. The foal nibbled and sucked on almost every inch of her legs and barrel, before learning that it had to adjust the angle of its' head and neck, to reach under and up at the same time. Then it began to suck, but had not yet learned to close it's mouth around the teat or swallow, lol, so more milk hit the floor than was consumed for a few minutes.

Shortly thereafter, the mare kept moving her udder away from the foal, and I was wondering if there was a problem that I had not yet picked up on.

In hindsight, and after watching several other mares with newborn foals, I am confident that I know the answer.

Foals do not know enough to follow their mother. They have to be taught. It is not instinctual. It is learned behaviour.


As the foal and mare were moved to an outdoor pen in a couple of days, the foal was walked between the cradled arms of two experienced handlers and the mare followed, as she would not leave her foal. Mothering is fairly instinctual, and this mare had been raised with a broodmare band in Alberta and was well versed in parenting from observation, although this was her first foal.

In the pen, I watched with fascination, as the mare taught the foal to stay with her. The colt was always on the move, away from his dam, and she would shake her head and sprint to head him off, circling him with her barrel. The colt tried a few boots with his hind legs and she bit his butt smartly at each attempt. (Another colt tried to rear on his dams' hindquarters within hours of birth, and she smoked him up the side of the head with a hind foot. I thought she would kill him, or lay him out! The foal shook his head and did not repeat the offense.) For several hours, the mare worked incredibly hard, and then it seemed to finally get through to the colt. Until weaning, the foal stayed at his dams' right hip, whenever they were moving, allowed more and greater latitude as he grew in stature and experience. If called from his play by the mare, he immediately dashed over and fell into position.

Another maiden mare I had, purchased as a weanling and without similar herd experience, foaled the same year, and that poor mother had a wretched time attempting to figure things out, with only two weeks of even seeing another foal born and raised to draw upon as her knowledge base.

I still can't help but feel there is a key to this global madness of being caught in the energies of all others talking and rambling tongues, to find that jewel of inter-communication_which truly carries content__instead of more noise and nonsense than knowledge.

Originally posted by Lloyd Gillespie

Noise and nonsense, as you put it Lloyd, has taken the place of knowledge, or so it seems.

As with the foal, our learning experience begins when we open our eyes, ears and mouths, possibly some learning takes place, even while in the womb, based on some research I've encountered.

Every minute of our life reinforces either positive or negative attitudes toward new experience and it's future application.

Yet, today, perhaps more than ever, we have children birthing babies, social and institutional support systems, public and private education facilities, but, and here's the but.....

Who is really doing the teaching?
What is being taught and learned?
What value systems and knowledge are being applied?

Which actually takes us very close to where Arthur's thread was heading.

Hope I haven't bored you all to death with equine details, yet as I state, it is my personal source of delight and inspiration.

As ever,

Lorrina

Oh yes, great comments Leskey, and a very appropriate musical choice. Some very good messages being channeled into society through the arts....

[SteveA]

Nature is my muse,

I had a thought along these lines before that most every form of creation we do is just mimicking things already existing in nature - we just combine things a little different and leave a human signature on it, but the seeds to do it with she gave us.

I also notice that she doesn't appear to need intellectual property laws to do it either

and horses are the species that I have had most opportunity to learn from, so please bear with me through yet another horse analogy, and I believe you will determine the relevance.

When a foal is born, far less of it's behavior is instinctual, than earlier presumed. Aside from the suckling reflex, and the rising to it's feet, and even those, I'm seeing, are helped by the dam.

One foal was born inside the barn, away from danger and distraction, and I was with the mare through the whole birthing.

As she lay on her side, with the foal's hind feet still inside the birth canal, and resting from her labour, the blood from the placenta was being transferred to the foal.

The little wet head, ears plastered back along it's neck, trembled as it opened and blinked it's eyes. The mare began a quiet crooning sound, and soon the foals' ears began to move, and nostrils flared, as it began to breathe of it's own accord.

The mare crooned for several minutes, and then the foal emitted a small 'eeeeckkkk' sound, and repeated this sound at intervals, as it was discovering it's vocal cords.

As the foal began to try it's legs, the mare arose, breaking the umbilical cord in the process, and the strong foal was on it's legs, splayed out for balance, on the first try.

Now the mare began to rub and lick the foal, and soon the foal was licking it's lips in emulation of it's dam, and sampling it's own tongue. The mare reached round with her long neck and guided the foal, by gentle nudges toward her udder, which was some time in the finding. The foal nibbled and sucked on almost every inch of her legs and barrel, before learning that it had to adjust the angle of its' head and neck, to reach under and up at the same time. Then it began to suck, but had not yet learned to close it's mouth around the teat or swallow, lol, so more milk hit the floor than was consumed for a few minutes.

Shortly thereafter, the mare kept moving her udder away from the foal, and I was wondering if there was a problem that I had not yet picked up on.

In hindsight, and after watching several other mares with newborn foals, I am confident that I know the answer.

Foals do not know enough to follow their mother. They have to be taught. It is not instinctual. It is learned behaviour.

It'a amazing the amount of natural instincts and coordination a foal is born with. I think there is a tradeoff though to this in the long run - instincts help get things off the ground, but they can also later become burdens to overcome.

For us it takes a lot more care and attention to raise a child but that's also due to the fact that we're more "flexible" in a sense and can live in more diverse ways. Fewer instincts = more work for parents, but also fewer instincts = greater freedom and self determination.

That's also an interesting observation you made regarding the dividing line between what actions are instinctual versus which are taught to the foal.

Something to consider as well is that in many ways the instincts are in the mother as well. The fact that she immediately performed these actions and interacted in a manner to teach the foal some necessary skills.

So the mother possessed many natural instincts as well and in some ways they're even more complex than the foal (don't get me wrong - standing up within minutes of being born is quite a feat in itself!! LOL)

[SteveA]

As the foal and mare were moved to an outdoor pen in a couple of days, the foal was walked between the cradled arms of two experienced handlers and the mare followed, as she would not leave her foal. Mothering is fairly instinctual, and this mare had been raised with a broodmare band in Alberta and was well versed in parenting from observation, although this was her first foal.

In the pen, I watched with fascination, as the mare taught the foal to stay with her. The colt was always on the move, away from his dam, and she would shake her head and sprint to head him off, circling him with her barrel. The colt tried a few boots with his hind legs and she bit his butt smartly at each attempt. (Another colt tried to rear on his dams' hindquarters within hours of birth, and she smoked him up the side of the head with a hind foot. I thought she would kill him, or lay him out! The foal shook his head and did not repeat the offense.) For several hours, the mare worked incredibly hard, and then it seemed to finally get through to the colt. Until weaning, the foal stayed at his dams' right hip, whenever they were moving, allowed more and greater latitude as he grew in stature and experience. If called from his play by the mare, he immediately dashed over and fell into position.

Another maiden mare I had, purchased as a weanling and without similar herd experience, foaled the same year, and that poor mother had a wretched time attempting to figure things out, with only two weeks of even seeing another foal born and raised to draw upon as her knowledge base.

You hit on a great point here and this is partly what I worry about as well in a sense for much of the society we currently have.

It's a risk utilizing institutions that replace natural interests, controls and responsibilities, even if such an institution generally yielded satisfactory results due to the change in culture that made the existence of that institution possible in the first place. That's a precarious situation ripe for a collapse.

For example, let's say that we eventually have a system where a parent pops a new born baby in one end and 18 years later they pop of the institutional oven supposedly ready for life as an adult (to me that would be like a nightmare - that's a storyline deserving of a horror movie).

Now let's say we run a couple of generations through this machine - what happens? Well we have a culture now that knows nothing of how to have children other than pop em out and place them on the conveyor belt.

Well what if, God forbid, this belt broke?

Who's going to raise the next generation after that?

It's entirely fine if parents wanted to do this and it was similar to some sort of private service (I still think it's a bad idea, but "technically" I don't think there's any legitimate complaint someone else could have nor are things best served by external involvement - the parent should do what they naturally feel is best with the resources they possess (which includes children in my book) etc. The consequences are up to nature/evolution etc. to determine and not something to preempted by social opinion).

The key here though is that parents who naturally prefer a different manner of raising their children are also not coerced from their desires either and we retain a diversity that still includes the roots from which it all sprung - if a branch falls off, we can grow a new one, but if we lose the roots then it's just a matter of time before the entire thing collapses (and call me hard headed or old school or conservative but there's nothing that replaces a family and if none of the members are complaining, noone else should go in and try to pull a family apart)

Noise and nonsense, as you put it Lloyd, has taken the place of knowledge, or so it seems.

Yes, a bit too much complexity is added at times and people get lost.

As with the foal, our learning experience begins when we open our eyes, ears and mouths, possibly some learning takes place, even while in the womb, based on some research I've encountered.

I'm certain that's the case. I believe hearing is already developing in the womb as well as some muscle coordination (which any mother whose been kicked around from the inside out can attest too )

Every minute of our life reinforces either positive or negative attitudes toward new experience and it's future application.

That's a very interesting comment and something that appears worth a closer look ... yes, there should be a learning of whether or not and what to learn as well and this could create a rather continual bias in life because it's something that could be self reinforcing (a rejection of learning appears a rather one way step because you would then not learn to learn - a one-way crystallization ... it would appear wise to never stop learning entirely )

Yet, today, perhaps more than ever, we have children birthing babies, social and institutional support systems, public and private education facilities, but, and here's the but.....

Who is really doing the teaching?
What is being taught and learned?
What value systems and knowledge are being applied?

Another good consideration here is to look at control and responsibility - these two components should go hand in hand. If someone is driving a car and has control of it, then that person should be the one responsible for any damages under this control.

If you have one person expected to keep building new cars and allow someone else to drive them carelessly and even continually crash them without accepting responsibility - don't give them another car until they learn how to drive (and at least indirectly respect the effort in building them - one way or another they cost, even if it's simply that there are no extra cars for anyone else) and if that means they have to build their own car for a change, so be it - a greater appreciation of the details of how things fit together could help.

Which actually takes us very close to where Arthur's thread was heading.

Hope I haven't bored you all to death with equine details, yet as I state, it is my personal source of delight and inspiration.

As ever,

Lorrina

Nature is a fascinating resource and maybe it's a good idea to look at the basics more - I believe the "big picture" is quite fractal in nature and it might be we can learn a lot about how people can interact by looking at how nature does it (though I'm certain we can still add a new human trick or two - every animal has a niche and I think we've got some potential for filling a lot of them).

[Mikal]

Yet, today, perhaps more than ever, we have children birthing babies, social and institutional support systems, public and private education facilities, but, and here's the but.....

Who is really doing the teaching?
What is being taught and learned?
What value systems and knowledge are being applied? (Quote by LW)


“Children birthing babies.” Believe it or not these young immature families were exceptionally encouraged by Social Engineers, think tanks who worked to produce ideas to change the foundational base of society through the breakdown and destabilization of the family unit.

The ideas produced were; create sexual education classes to encourage young sexual interest, create condom availability in schools to encourage early, young sexual activity, condom availability can lapse, teach children’s Rights equal to allowable abuse charges against unsuspecting parents, create student welfare equal to young rebellious stage to encourage young, teen isolation which gives opportune time to create young pregnancy and young, immature families, Work all this out through the educational system.

“Social and Institutional Support Systems.” Social Engineers worked this out too. Ideas produced; use the Economy to raise the cost of living=the necessity for two working parents=the creation of latch-key kids without direction or guidance, create daycares and pre-kindergarten nurseries for impersonal teaching and learning structures optimal for gov. intervention into the family unit, infiltrate the educational system at all levels to infuse the indoctrination that the Family is no longer sacred, a Therapeutic Society will need a broad base of social and institutional support systems=increase the social service field through re-creation of new fields of study into human psychology and new counseling career choices which will fill the void as the family unit destabilizes and falls apart.

Who is doing the teaching?
Strangers who have no emotional ties to the children>loss of intimate ties>teaching by a mandate, ritual of teaching through study materials. Institutions which are Formal Organizations which are large, impersonal bureaucratic associations that exist for clearly defined economic or political purposes.

What is being taught and learned?
Family values are not upheld. The family teaches privacy, the social institutions undo any privacy learning. The family loves unconditionally around discipline, the social institutions teach discipline/punishment. Families enjoy child spontaneous outbursts, Social Institutions call this ADD expression and either use Behavior Modification for correction or the suggestion to parents that the child be drugged on Ritalin. The family encourages a natural environment everyone can be comfortable in, the Social Institutions train the children to live by rote for example even if a young child says they need to use the washroom they are asked to wait until washroom time. With young, immature kidneys lots of kids make mistakes and then are punished.

What value systems and knowledge are being applied?

None the aim is to create a generation not fully cognizant that they have been demoralized. It takes 20 years to demoralize an entire generation which is why the educational system was expanded to infancy and the system itself used as the conduit of information beneficial to changing the base of an entire society.


Regards Mikal

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Excellent honest post Beverley, thanks... So what's your cures...?rrr

What value systems and knowledge are being applied?

None the aim is to create a generation not fully cognizant that they have been demoralized. It takes 20 years to demoralize an entire generation which is why the educational system was expanded to infancy and the system itself used as the conduit of information beneficial to changing the base of an entire society.


Regards Mikal

[Mikal]

Thanks Lloyd...parents are helpless to help themselves unless they have the history. The history is the bigger picture beyond the small horizons of their own life. Without the history the changes enacted are not understood...
When unique situations arise that complicate family there is an environment of history which has already unfolded to allow that situation to arise...I give families the history, they acquire the tools they need to pass through the situation being fully empowered by the knowledge they have attained...it helps them to remain emotionally intact and stronger, against an onslaught of cultural invasion they could not have understood without the history...


Regards Mikal