East Meets West Logic...

[SteveA]

'neither one is strictly reducible to the other'.

I retire contemplating the above.....

Something about it resonates....

I believe this is actually true - there is not a precise logical manner to define counting arbitrarily large quantities - basically we can define ways to count to some specific quantity, but the general way to count is simply to refer to things that are vaguely "next" and I think this even relates to physics and time.

I don't want to too technical but consider a computer - it only has a finite quantity of memory and can't continually store more and more information without eventually filling all available positions in memory.

If a computer could somehow store unlimited quantities of information, then we couldn't specifically determine where it stored that nor what would already be present there, nor could we even be certain that such space was actually capable of storing anything - it would be uncontrolled and undetermined and not something determinable ahead of time via. logic.

Basically I think Platos view that numbers and forms preexist as building blocks for other things is likely true - though maybe there exists some realm outside that, we wouldn't be able to communicate much of anything about it as our communications use those numbers and forms

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hey dummy, ya can't have inflation with permamently controlled global prices, which absolutely does/would/could produce real wealth of goods and services__Did ya forget money is a 'goods'...? It's obvious, you are not an economist, Steve. Fixed prices absolutely does print up valuable goods and services, etc. It's never worked so far, because there's never been a global agreement to do just this__they always take the price freezes off, and then the inflation rears its ugly head. Didn't you ever realize how governments finance real wars__They always fix/control prices and print the real wealth needed__WWI & WWII. Why isn't anyone smart enough to realize, this will work for peace__Also...???rrr

What we really want is a way to "print" up valuable goods and services etc.

Paper will always be paper. If you want real wealth you don't print up paper, you create the value behind it.

If a law sets a price for some product and you print up more paper but fix the price then you'll find you have paper but nothing to buy with it - a.k.a. massive inflation.
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Massive inflation is just your personal brainwashed fears of the lies you've been told and sold. Just simply look at real world scientific dynamics for a change__Imagine; Any global King who had total power, could overnight pass the permanent fixed price law, and we'd immediately enter 'Heaven On Earth', which is actually just copying the tally-board system Egypt was so successful with for millenia... This is just how stupid humanity truly is__They're blind to the simplest mechanics of permanently fixed and controlled prices__Eternally ban variable prices, and the entire world can print real wealth__overnight, to actually give the poorest of the world's citizens at least a descent bare subsistence living standard... And anyone is a simple fool, not to see the truth of these scientific facts...

Money is not complex__People are economically stupid...rrr

P.s.
I do not advocate such a system, but I do advocate a facsimile system__with newly organized government markets__controlling private markets' pricing systems__as the best possible mixed market capitalism...

[SteveA]

Hey dummy, ya can't have inflation with permamently controlled global prices, which absolutely does/would/could produce real wealth of goods and services__Did ya forget money is a 'goods'...?

I was pointing out that if you fix prices but don't have enough supply then you have have money unable to buy anything and that's effectively the same as inflation (infinite inflation).

It's obvious, you are not an economist, Steve. Fixed prices absolutely does print up valuable goods and services, etc. It's never worked so far, because there's never been a global agreement to do just this__they always take the price freezes off, and then the inflation rears its ugly head.

It's likely because the inflation was imminent and this was just compensating to avoid the case I was pointing out where you suddenly can't buy anything with the money.

For example, let's say we print up 5 dollars and the "market" contains 4 apples, which someone declares must be sold for 1 dollar each.

In that case one dollar will be worth 0 apples, despite the declaration that it should be worth 1 apple.

What we need are more efficient manners to supply the tangible values.

Didn't you ever realize how governments finance real wars__They always fix/control prices and print the real wealth needed__WWI & WWII.

And economic conditions during these times were problematic.

Simply because we could try to do something does not mean that we should try to do it.

Why isn't anyone smart enough to realize, this will work for peace__Also...???rrr

Well we do need prices to fluctuate to follow supply and demand. An improvement that can be made though is to more dynamically track and match these so that we have less wasted efforts and mismatches, but I think those ideas could be applied in a broader sense than just purely monetary exchanges.

Massive inflation is just your personal brainwashed fears of the lies you've been told and sold.

Ok, how can a whimsical declaration of what a price should be actually assure sufficient goods to meet that price?

You're dreaming if you believe otherwise and have been brainwashed yourself.

Just as an extreme example to show the fallacy, imagine if the price of a new car was fixed at 1 cent ... it would be a mad rush to the nearest dealer and you'd have a lot of people holding unredeemable pennies. (Not to mention that car dealers and manufacturers would almost certainly go out of business)

Don't try to convince me that if people only stuck it out and tried to force cars to be worth a penny that we'd ultimately find the truth in the statement ... if the waiting line in a country for cars is 500 years long, is that really the type of "market" we're talking about.

I gave that extreme example simply to emphasize the fallacy that value can be centrally declared - no, values are determined by a very large number of individuals - the consumers.

I recognize you want something you believe would be more balanced, and that could help some and yes, there could be ways of reducing some fluctuations in prices with greater foresight and faster response to changes in supply and demand (that already happens with speculation on investments), but without a freedom to develop and improve these systems, we'll be worse off.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Steve, lesson #1__Think before shooting off your fingers. Use your imagination for a change. Within that thick skull is the same mathematical process I'm using. We all possess the natural nature-given calculating differential engine, if we just choose to use it. Now, all you've done is use your personal fears to exaggerate someone else's statements to total nonsense, which has nothing to do with what I stated. I stated putting newly acquired government markets, in a controlling position of private markets pricing systems, which is exactly what the Obama administration is somewhat doing, right now. Where you been? It's also what China's been doing for over twenty years. Why do you think they're so successful? It's just the blindness to the real world, which you are a prime example, that keeps America in the back seat of economic advancements of recent years.

Now, reduce your ridiculous emotional exaggerations to sensible numbers, and realize that any government controlling the printing press, has the power to set sensible issuance of the money supply, just as they've always done. All that's advocated is a simple system of public debt reductions, which if you'd go back to the beginning of this thread, and follow it through, instead of thinking you know what you obviously do not know, you may see you are attacking very valid ideas. Just because you're too jealous to see other's ideas as valid, and only your own validity has honesty, doesn't mean it's so. As a matter of fact, I've seen nothing yet you've said that offers any improvement feasibility to the world what-so-ever, other than touchy-feely nonsense, and pure fear...

What I posted was an exercize in imagination expansion, since the world is so over-full of blind minds like yours, that must be broken through. You are a perfect example of what's wrong with the entire world__i.e.__Let's stay with the old self-assassinating system, that kills millions of women and children every year, just because of the fact I'm jealous of other's ideas. J.M.Keynes, who the entire world certainly knows is much wiser than you, advocated the system I'm proposing__Not I. I think I'll be following him and Paul Davidson, instead of some internet troll like yourself__Thanks just the same...rrr

Here's an example:
The natural moral, mathematical law of philanthropic equilibrium can produce superior systems of universal economic justice. The power of the above's natural law ideas, creates law with teeth, as ideas connected to the natural laws have real teeth and true power. You see, the rudimentary problem is the U.S. Constitution's incompleteness, from our founding fathers on. Both Jefferson and Franklin offered completeness solutions, in their day, but these ideas did not make it into the original document - They should have. Franklin's works offer an international bank to manage the offshore tax havens, and Jefferson's works offered the 11'th amendment against monopolies. Many throughout history have offered these same solutions, from Plato to Keynes and our own Paul Davidson, but they have not been instituted, as they should have been. Isn't it about time?

The natural moral, mathematical law of equilibrium demands an evolution of the U.S. Constitution. Natural equilibrium law demands a separation of powers to balance the U.S. Constitution in a perfect universal competition of markets, to create a true universal justice. The completeness of the separation of powers for the U.S. Constitution can be accomplished by simply creating and adding a 28'th amendment. The incompleteness of the separation of powers in the U.S. Constitution is glaringly obvious, when it is simply pointed out, and historical knowledge teaches us that natural equilibrium law works best under the widest separation of powers possible. We need a higher equilibriating U.S. Constitution, beyond Godel's constitutional incompleteness.

Remember, true moral, mathematical liberty is equilibrium, and absolute liberty is absolute equilibrium! The ideal is the absolute equilibrium of your law structures, and the problem only exists because there is no rudimentary natural moral law thinking. The natural laws grant the only way out of the semi-entropic systems. The higher ideas and natural laws of philanthropy and equilibrium are the only ideas and laws to best the lower ideas and natural laws of supply and demand, comparative advantage, and free trade. The fundamental house of naturally equilibriated laws, will be, and is, our only true savior. The rights of liberty, justice, and equality is a natural law of absolute equilibrium - The scales of true justice - The balance of all! The highest spirit of the law is the highest natural equilibrium - possible!

Is capitalism balanced? No! Let's write the sliding time scale law structure to balance it into an ideal and scientific universal justice! The #1 fundamental natural law of universal justice - Divide supply and demand into a multi-directional supply and demand, or, put money in competition with money, globally, and scientific universal justice can be achieved! It all comes down to, "If we set up government, all government, in business in competition with existing private commercial business, we can unilaterally make unlimited reasonable use of the printing press."

Further examples:
Universal justice will be found in the internal balances of all autonomous nations. If all nations balance their internal affairs, they will be automatically balanced externally. This can be accomplished by the separation of supply and demand, into two competing supply and demand markets, internally!

An economic, universal justice system of supply and demand computerized databases, based on Boolean logic and sliding time scale law structures, with dynamic pricing balances, can be built and implemented world wide, to solve our over-pressing problems! Derivatives database supply and demand, the world's largest economic reality, is controlling the entire planet, now! This, my friends, must change!

We have the ability to computerize capitalism into balance, solve our problems, and honor the entirety of human yearnings...

I was pointing out that if you fix prices but don't have enough supply then you have have money unable to buy anything and that's effectively the same as inflation (infinite inflation).

[Mikal]

You know where I work we have excess of supply and demand is down and declining so we are in the worst over-stock crisis we have ever seen. It is absolutely creating chaos in everybody's job and the corporations expectations are unrealistic.

I have been observing how they are manipulating sales techniques to encourage "enslavement to debt" so creating another big bubble thats bound to burst if it works. But I see a general caution in people now cause there is immense information out there to help people finally understand the dynamics of "illusionary wealth."

In this area we have massive job loss and the corporation itself just tossed the jobs of 750 people in Saskatchewan and 250 here in Ontario so they could move their call-center to the Phillipeans where they can run their call-center for dimes as opposed to the rates of pay they were dishing out here...

We simply need to know what to do with the massive information pouring in from all over the globe...information is useless if you do not understand it and use it to make your material existence more constructive and reasonable and for many its learning how to live comfortably within your own means...

Regards Mikal

[SteveA]

...

I have been observing how they are manipulating sales techniques to encourage "enslavement to debt" so creating another big bubble thats bound to burst if it works. But I see a general caution in people now cause there is immense information out there to help people finally understand the dynamics of "illusionary wealth."

In this area we have massive job loss and the corporation itself just tossed the jobs of 750 people in Saskatchewan and 250 here in Ontario so they could move their call-center to the Phillipeans where they can run their call-center for dimes as opposed to the rates of pay they were dishing out here...

Part of the problem with these price disparities has come from the idea that we can print wealth using paper.

The flow of dollars wherever they're created goes outward toward areas where prices are lower in an attempt to equalize these prices, but if money is continually "injected" (like all these crazy "stimulus packages") then values in some currency can't stabilize and we continually have real goods and products produced outside this inflated zone and that's part of the reason why jobs continually head out of the country (at least in the U.S.).

Yes, you get some "free stuff" for a little while (if you can convince people the money is still valuable or force people to accept it) but the long term costs of this rather counterfeit representation of value are severe.

We simply need to know what to do with the massive information pouring in from all over the globe...information is useless if you do not understand it and use it to make your material existence more constructive and reasonable and for many its learning how to live comfortably within your own means...

I do agree with that very much. I prefer to keep life rather simple (except for a few fun excesses) and make sure what's coming in supports this well (I never buy on credit).

On the other hand, the system we currently have appears to be set up to drag everyone down with it and it might be a good time to begin loosening the chains and building lifeboats

Regards Mikal

Thanks for your comments

[Mikal]

Maybe were past the lifeboat and its more like we now need the Ark...lol

Well guys thanks for great discussion...off to sleep now as I return again tomorrow for another day in the slave market....the only thing that keeps me afloat is that I am a principled slave....smiles...


Regards Mikal

[SteveA]

Steve, lesson #1__Think before shooting off your fingers. Use your imagination for a change. Within that thick skull is the same mathematical process I'm using. We all possess the natural nature-given calculating differential engine, if we just choose to use it. Now, all you've done is use your personal fears to exaggerate someone else's statements to total nonsense, which has nothing to do with what I stated.

But the problem is that such mismatches can occur when you try to dictate values from the top-down. As I said, I simply took it to an extreme to emphasize the problem, but it still exists to various extents anytime it's believed that you can guarantee X units of such and such are equal to Y units of something else and another problem is that such declarations aren't inherently attached to consumer values either. If they're truly declared top-down then you could have large mismatches (why do they keep making toothbrushes when we already have 5 each?! ).

I stated putting newly acquired government markets, in a controlling position of private markets pricing systems, which is exactly what the Obama administration is somewhat doing, right now. Where you been?

As I said things have been going your direction for a long time ... the economic problems being experienced are a result of this. Adding more will simply continue to push things further off the deep end.

It's also what China's been doing for over twenty years. Why do you think they're so successful?

Because of the relatively economically free cities they've constructed also many companies and industries have been economically forced to relocate elsewhere and we still have the printing presses on here with money flowing out and so China appears less expensive, though that's also partly an illusion created by fiat currencies and fewer companies would need to move if we had a more stable currency.

It's just the blindness to the real world, which you are a prime example, that keeps America in the back seat of economic advancements of recent years.

No, it's the adoption of many of the ideas that you're presenting that have been trashing the place.

Don't worry, it appears you'll have your wish granted and we'll see how it works out. I suggest planning an escape route.

So, why don't you just go post your nonsense in your own thread, and stop polluting mine...rrr

P.s.
Get the point yet, Steve...? I'm not interested in your emotional lies...

If you were simply talking about a Theory of Everything and we were disagreeing on a physical model - who cares? No biggy, but in this case the subject over government and laws then you're really proposing that we should fine or incarcerate people that disagree with your views. That's ultimately what you're proposing whether you realize it or not and in that case there's a bit more of an obligation I feel to make certain people don't get fed the "wrong physical model" because these views have already caused a lot of real damage and it needs to stop.

[SteveA]

Maybe were past the lifeboat and its more like we now need the Ark...lol

I actually agree - some things appear beyond any ability to save or help. It appears that ultimately there's no manner to forcibly assist anything against its own nature (that's one of those things that I've gone over a lot of times but it appears ultimately you have to let things be as they are and let nature/God/evolution/time etc. do its thing - similar to the idea that you can't really judge other people, nor can you free by force nor can you teach via. coercion etc. All those do is destroy what was there and they create nothing but impotent repetition in its place)

Well guys thanks for great discussion...off to sleep now as I return again tomorrow for another day in the slave market....the only thing that keeps me afloat is that I am a principled slave....smiles...

Ditto me a copy of that sentiment (though I'm still trying to work the lock on these manacles ).

Regards Mikal

Thanks again.

There are a lot of good people out there, but how do the good guys get a leg up? One thing for certain is that cancer can't survive on its own but the question is how far will it spread and is it a terminal case ... (I admit that some technologies could be extremely destabilizing ... oh well it does appear that many things are left to an unknown future).

[Lloyd Gillespie]

If you were simply talking about a Theory of Everything and we were disagreeing on a physical model - who cares? No biggy, but in this case the subject over government and laws then you're really proposing that we should fine or incarcerate people that disagree with your views.

Steve, you can't even read the words stated. It's really sad that someone wants to try and destroy sincere ideas, being put forth of some of the greatest minds on Earth, since the time of Plato, and not even realize what they are doing. Well Steve, history will clearly record your ineptitude. You state I advocate things I do not, which are simply the ideas of other great minds, far greater than yours or mine. I'd suggest you study the real economics literature, because you certainly have no idea what you speak of... Why you'd want to make such a fool of yourself, is beyond me, but that seems to be the way of many of your generation__It's really too bad...rrr