Darwin's Discovery: Design without a Designer

[Lloyd Gillespie]

From what I gather Greg, you seem to believe in a determined universe, from the fundamental substance and actions. I see the same process as pure chance, at the most fundamental substance level up, which is my interpretation of 'The Uncertainty Principle', which in turn allows 'Free Will.'

These are the fundamental differences, which I do not think are provable, at the fundamental level, but when bio-humans arrive, I do see 'Free Will' as provable, by the simplest of examples given about one hundred years ago; If one holds one's hand in front of oneself, one has the free will choice to turn it front to back, as many times as he chooses__Yeah, simple I know, but all that's required is the most simple of examples__Which is a clear scientific proof, imo...

The most obvious important proof of free will's evolution is the evolution of liberty over the fight or flight instincts of chance clobbering each other, of years past. All the statistical records, show the organized democracies of liberty, to have the lowest death rates per capita, including all the major wars fought, compared to aboriginal tribes, all over the world, by a ratio of 3% compared to 40% for the uncivilized death rates...

Our free will choices of liberty, over feuding, seems to be on the side of our chance and choice free wills, which your side/view would probably interpret as determinism. So, we're back into the antinomies/contradictions areas of linguistic choices and meanings, of differing schools of thought__and herein lies the major problem__Different schools of thought apply different meaning to the linguistic uses of languages and meanings of__And herein, is the reason the scientific areas of philosophy are needed, to sort these differences, or at least, categorize, qualify and quantify these differences into viable and understandable dialogues. I didn't create the meaning confusions__chance evolution did...

I didn't miss this ... in fact I thought I thanked it and asked you about it ?[I may have missed it...]

I don't fully understand the formulas .... ??[They're just general formulas, that if we parameterize categories of the sciences into mathematical knowns, we can solve the functions and forms of, again, in a general sense, as science lacks the total information flow of any one totally complete system. It's like DaveW's or my system's FS views have sound logical basis, but require philosophy to link them to reality, as the maths or experiments required at these levels, are only partially available, due to being blocked by our mathematical inabilities of handling infinities__as is really, every model thus far posed by the scientific community__We only have partially completed maths/guage theories, in all these models...]



Yes ... I am going to agree with this. I see it in purely practical pragmatic terms ... but I also see that to others this is unintelligible ... so if it takes philosophy to render the physical, then I am willing to try.



Yes .... Agreed ....



Yes ... still in agreement .... please note that ... ummm ... if I am not so good at using the 'tool' .. then it does not mean that I am being offensive.

I'll state up front that my reasoning for arguing that Function follows Form will be to question the tenets:

That we have free will and choice .... (eg: Austin's dog gave me no free will)

That 'Forms' exist in all populations awaiting their turn to serve a Function.[So far, I see it true in both directions, according to how stated, and the meanings interpretations of the words and order of words used, and of course, as pertaining to what era, as per the inanimate or animate__There seems to be a major cross of word and meaning systems, at this level/state change, or whatever one wants to call it__Bringing in the un-necessary dis-agreements...]

cool bananas ... greg

[Graybeard]

From what I gather Greg, you seem to believe in a determined universe, from the fundamental substance and actions. I see the same process as pure chance, at the most fundamental substance level up, which is my interpretation of 'The Uncertainty Principle', which in turn allows 'Free Will.'

Ok ... I see what you are saying now ..... No, I am not a determinist.

I see it as pure chance also ..... from the FS forward. Random generation/mutation ... conditional on what events exist or lead up to that point ? (I think this makes sense) In fact I see the Cosmos as eventually being encompassed within the laws of Natural Selection ... a GUT being a subset of Evolution ... a form of Natural Selection being the TOE.

Regarding this theory allowing free will .... Yes ... I agree with you.

I am not sure if I am using Lateral thinking .. but .. I see the 'uncertainty principle' in physics mirrored in the 'mutations' in Biology. I am not saying that I have derived a Law ... but I believe firmly that a system that contains 'imperfections' is the only system that can survive ... the only system capable of adaptations. Perfect or high suitability (quality) cannot adapt quickly?? Total Perfection would be unable to adapt at all ?

Not sure if I have explained the above very well ?

Hitler: Russia will fall like a house of cards
Stalin: Our numbers are vast
Hitler: Yes, but we have quality
Stalin: We have quantity. Quantity has a quality all of its own

In evolutionary terms Quantity will survive over Quality ... because it contains more imperfections that may be suitable to new conditions ? Quality is only the best fit so long as nothing else changes ? So a lateral award for quality must go to Quantity ?

Still not sure that I have got this over very well ?

These are the fundamental differences, which I do not think are provable, at the fundamental level, but when bio-humans arrive, I do see 'Free Will' as provable, by the simplest of examples given about one hundred years ago; If one holds one's hand in front of oneself, one has the free will choice to turn it front to back, as many times as he chooses__Yeah, simple I know, but all that's required is the most simple of examples__Which is a clear scientific proof, imo...

The most obvious important proof of free will's evolution is the evolution of liberty over the fight or flight instincts of chance clobbering each other, of years past. All the statistical records, show the organized democracies of liberty, to have the lowest death rates per capita, including all the major wars fought, compared to aboriginal tribes, all over the world, by a ratio of 3% compared to 40% for the uncivilized death rates...

Our free will choices of liberty, over feuding, seems to be on the side of our chance and choice free wills, which your side/view would probably interpret as determinism. So, we're back into the antinomies/contradictions areas of linguistic choices and meanings, of differing schools of thought__and herein lies the major problem__Different schools of thought apply different meaning to the linguistic uses of languages and meanings of__And herein, is the reason the scientific areas of philosophy are needed, to sort these differences, or at least, categorize, qualify and quantify these differences into viable and understandable dialogues. I didn't create the meaning confusions__chance evolution did...

Yes ... I am going to try and address this. It is probably the biggest (only ?) difference between us

cool bananas ...greg

[austintorn@aol.com]

Charles Darwin,
One of MIkal's favorites,
Working long before
The DNA/genetics revelations
Of the 1950’s,
Was a Victorian era scientist
Who constructed his revolutionary theory
Of evolution through natural selection
Over a lifetime of meticulous observation and thought.

It is perhaps the must powerful idea in science
And still drives the contemporary research agenda.

Life was staggeringly dull
A billion and a half years ago,
And, of course,
In the 15 billion years before that,
The once steaming ocean having become a cold,
Thin, dreary broth of look-alike organisms.

Eukaryotic cells
With internal structures had appeared,
But not yet were there
Any muticellular creatures.

Life lazed through those doldrums
For a million millennia.

Imagine the lengths of these times.

Then some combination
Of environmental circumstance
And genetic novelty triggered
A wild diversification in
The variety and complexity of animal life
Over tens of millions of years,
Climaxing in what is now called
The Cambrian explosion.

By 530 million years ago
The seas held a multitude
Of bizarre creatures—
As now seen fossilized
In the Burgess Shale,
Perhaps near where
Graham of ToeQuest lives.

As is often the case,
Many of those weird Cambrian monsters
Were evolutionary dead ends,
But a certain few were
The progenitors of every animal alive today.

Darwin’ real breakthrough
Was that evolution became inevitable,
Since in organisms whose environment had changed,
Those who had reproductive success
Depended on inherited traits.

Then, too, there was the simple mechanism
Of natural selection,
Although there could be more methods.

Since then, Darwin’s ideas have connected up
With genetics, molecular biology,
Ecology and embryology.

Today, Darwin’s legacy is a larger,
More richer, more diverse set of theories
Than he could have imagined.

While the competition
For ecological resources,
Also called natural selection
Or “survival of the fittest”,
Demonstrably drives much
Of evolution and speciation,
Biologists are now onto
The elaboration of Darwin’s ideas
About sexual selection,
Plus ongoing debates about roles
For selection at the single level of genes,
The individual organism,
Whole species, and/or all of the above.

[austintorn@aol.com]

An Idea With No Hair

I read something,
But I lost the magazine…
So will try to reconstruct.

We were once very furry
But now have very little hair
On our bodies.

Most animals still have
A lot of hair or fur,
But for the larger beasts
That ever need to cool
Their large mass.

It’s warmer now,
So even the naked elephant
Is no longer a Wolly Mammoth.

When eats and treats were abundant,
Our furry ancestors could just
Laze around, not exerting themselves;

But, when forest shrank,
‘We’ had to walk/run
Over long distances
To secure our prey/food,
And so some thick clogged hair
All over would not do so well for us.

Hair was thus selected out,
In conjunction with
The arrival of sweat glands
That could even dump
12 liters a day.

We were pink underneath our fur,
This turning to black in the hot regions.

Hair on the head still works
To ward off the direct sun.

Via our new epidermal sweat glands,
We could increase
Our body and brain size
And exert ourselves more.

[austintorn@aol.com]

The Daemon

It was the time of positivism,
When Laplace thought
That formulas could tell all,
The time when when so many discoveries
Came about that encyclopedias
Had to be revised every 6 months.

Mary Ann Evans gave up on her first love,
He not finding her body symetrical.

Her personality made up for this,
Plus her desire to freely fly
From the grasp of determinism,
To transform the purposeless Cosmos
Into her heart’s desire.

One was not a puppet;
There were no strings attached;
There was nowhere to attach them to.

She moulded this freedom
Into a love with another
That went beyond all calculation;
They were a poetically scientific couple,
Beneficiaries of the inexactness of formula
And Darwin’s facts
Of the arbritrary human narrative,

And, while they knew not,
They were freed by the randomness
Of the quantum realm
And other noise in the system,
New brains cells forming
That changed the marble cut
Into a living fluid sculpture.

She thus developed,
Becoming what she was not
In the beginning.

As a novelist,
Mary Ann used her pen name,
George Eliot,
To celebrate this inherent freedom
Long before science discovered it.

[austintorn@aol.com]

old, bearded guy in the sky

Mundi Epilog

‘Twas the Pope’s highest Cardinal [Sin] himself
Who’d ordered the assault on the Gray One,
And so the end was to be at hand,
But, on the other hand,
Graybeard had algae
And had flung it into the eyes of his pursuers,
Then patted the end of his horse.

The knights faltered and gave up the chase,
But the spiritual chasers appeared in their stead,
Stating unscientific theories,
Such as “God is”.

And then?
The Spiritual Chasers of God Arrived

Meanwhile, science was (re)written
To say that some ancient wise men
Had long ago discovered the weak and strong nuclear forces
While thinking about earth, air, fire and water,
Then correlating it to consciousness.

One of the ancient ones discovers a photon,
As well as the entire electromagnetic spectrum,
The strong force and the weak force,
Which corresponds to thought,
But they called it “Taurus”.

The spiritualists wanted it all,
And so they had to ordain themselves as “special”,
Above and beyond all the rest,
For that way they could be deserving
Of even more reward in the afterlife,
All this born out of their pride
Of their very own Divine Creation…
That they made up.

Graybeard had befriended some of the spirituals,
But had to use logic on some of those remaining…

From the top of a large weathered rock,
Graybeard cried out, “Where is God?”

Each spiritual answered in turn:

“He is between our heartbeats and breaths.”
“He is life.”
“He is the universe.”
“He is love.”
“He is everywhere.”
“All is of His illusion.”

Graybeard answered,
“You have said nothing but life is life,
And the universe is the universe, and so forth,
Just equating one real thing
To another name of an invisible thing
That is even quite undefined in the first place.

Who are you all that makest all of these words
Plied upon and on top of what is?”

“We are the spiritual chasers of God;
We label Him as anything and everything we choose.”

Old Gray, looking a bit like God himself,
With his long gray and flowing beard, continued,
“Are you human mammals of such recent vintage
So extraordinarily important and special
In the whole entire scheme of things
That took so many tens of billions of years
To stumble along in such as haphazard way?”

“Yes.”

“Do a trillion stars exist just to illumine your night?”

“Yes.”

“Do forty million species thrive just for your delight?”

“Yes.”

“And is all of space out there just for show, to glorify you?”

“Yes.”

“Did the supernovae stardust showers
Of the atomic elements write the names of future humans Across the sky way back when?”

“Yes.”

“Does every atom exist and spin to service you?”

“Yes.”

“Did Proto-men, and before them, and all, live,
Die and suffer only for your promise?”

“Yes.”

“So, then, every dinosaur,
And more, was condemned
So you could gain a space to live, war and kill?”

“Yes.”

“Does the sun shine with you in mind?”

“Yes.”

“Was Heaven’s Shrine built just to await your coming,
You being so special as to deserve a divine reward beyond?”

“Yes.”

“Oh my, religious ones, how vain and proud you all are!
What hubris, conceit, self-love, and vanity
Have you to claim such full self-importance!

To demand so much from the universe…

That you would even claim an angelic vapor that
Drives a living being, provides character,
Morality, and consciousness, on top of
A burdensome, fragile, and expensive
Organ such as a brain ne’er to be used?

It’s a silliness born from exaggerated
Self-worth, an invisible hilarity—
Becoming a merciless indoctrination.

May you all soon recover your humility.”

And such spoke the humble Graybeard to show
The truth of what we all are: mammal, organic;
Past narcissism and self-adulation,
To the bioelectrochemical organism
Evolved upon a planet near a star,
In the long and winding mindless way of
Slow time, dust, and selection by death that
Sifts the best from the rest: evolution.

And such did Analog once observe that
The creature out thinks the creator,
With inferior tools, to imagine a
Much more peaceful and enjoyful world,
And that it is emotion that creates
Delusions of heavenly scenarios of
Creation, and an existence beyond death.

These are lessons in humility to all
Mammals grown so high and haughty…

So… enjoy it all as though you will never
Know it again; for who is to say that you shall?

Only one spiritualist was left at the base of the rock,
But she had Graybeard surrounded…
With her words on evolution symbolized by the Bible.

“That’s it,” said Gray Newt, “I’m gone”,
And so he fired up his jet pack
And launched himself into the sky
Toward the white patches of vapor and fluff.

Some of the aboriginals now thought him a God—
And so he became the legend—
That God was an old white-haired [grey bearded]
Guy sitting on a cloud.

old, bearded guy in the sky

[SB_UK]

Pray hither now beseech thee tell
the tale of Red Beard down yonder,
and his battle with swoopdog Jetpack Greybie
for thown higgledy souls.

[Graybeard]

Form follows Function .... (If it looks good, it will work)

For Form to follow Function then the first catalyst/link in the chain must be a needed function.

First Ques: What is doing or providing the requirement for a Function ?

Second Ques: Does this function require a designer to shape a form around it ?

Third Ques: If so, then the function must serve a purpose. Was the purpose in existence before the function existed ?

With these sort of questions ... Each time I answer one to my own satisfaction ... I find that unwittingly I have posed to myself a new one in order to answer the previous one. Each one provides the grounds for a new one to be asked ... until I reach the stage where I ask the ultimate question

Ultimate Ques: Does the Universe have or serve a purpose ?

This question I can find no satisfactory answer to unless I start believing in 'The Spirit in the Sky'. To me the term 'Spirit in the Sky' encompasses all hypothesis that cannot be logically, rationally, reasonably ... (lol) deduced .. but provide temporary satisfaction for all that we don't know.

From the top of a large weathered rock,
Graybeard cried out, “Where is 'The Spirit in the Sky'?”

Each spiritual answered in turn:

“He is between our heartbeats and breaths.”
“He is life.”
“He is the universe.”
“He is love.”
“He is everywhere.”
“All is of His illusion.”

Graybeard answered,
“You have said nothing but life is life,

The fact that I have quoted Austin does not mean Intelligent Design arguments are not welcome in this thread. I am willing to listen and comprehend.


Function Follows Form:

But amazingly, If I reverse the principle from 'Form Follows Function' to 'Function Follows Form' ... then, at first imperceptibly, I find that all the questions can be answered ... all paradoxes disappear ... and in a manner that I was not expecting ... and these answers remain impervious to a 'Devil's Advocate' approach.

This is a Hypothesis that can be logically, rationally, reasonably ... be deduced. ......

cool bananas ... greg

[Lloyd Gillespie]

How do you avoid the infinite regress to undecidability either way, Greg...?

When you turn it around, then you must answer how function ultimately follows form__same conundrum__What's the eternal form...?

If you say space__Where's its function...?

If you say motion__From what, and where's its function...?

If you say matter/mass__Where and of What...?

If you say FS__What type and what's it made of...?

If you say energy__From what physical process is energy made...?

If you say infinity__What shape...?

If you say eternity__What's it made of...?

If you say waves__What type and what cause...?

If you say gravity__From what...?

If you say inflation__What prime mover...?

If you say emergence__From what and how...?

Form follows Function .... (If it looks good, it will work)

For Form to follow Function then the first catalyst/link in the chain must be a needed function.

First Ques: What is doing or providing the requirement for a Function ?[Wave symmetry's thermodynamic entropic hydrodynamics...]

Second Ques: Does this function require a designer to shape a form around it ?[Absolutely not...]

Third Ques: If so, then the function must serve a purpose. Was the purpose in existence before the function existed ?[Zero purpose__pure chance...]

With these sort of questions ... Each time I answer one to my own satisfaction ... I find that unwittingly I have posed to myself a new one in order to answer the previous one. Each one provides the grounds for a new one to be asked ... until I reach the stage where I ask the ultimate question[Welcome to the infinite regress__Aporia...]

Ultimate Ques: Does the Universe have or serve a purpose ?[Geo-Universe__Absolutely none__Only Bio-Creatures attain purpose...]

This question I can find no satisfactory answer to unless I start believing in 'The Spirit in the Sky'. To me the term 'Spirit in the Sky' encompasses all hypothesis that cannot be logically, rationally, reasonably ... (lol) deduced .. but provide temporary satisfaction for all that we don't know.[No 'Spirit in the Sky...']

The fact that I have quoted Austin does not mean Intelligent Design arguments are not welcome in this thread. I am willing to listen and comprehend.

Function Follows Form:

But amazingly, If I reverse the principle from 'Form Follows Function' to 'Function Follows Form' ... then, at first imperceptibly, I find that all the questions can be answered ... all paradoxes disappear ... and in a manner that I was not expecting ... and these answers remain impervious to a 'Devil's Advocate' approach.

This is a Hypothesis that can be logically, rationally, reasonably ... be deduced. ......

cool bananas ... greg

So state it, and please answer the preliminary questions above...

[Graybeard]

First , I thought we were talking around biological evolution, but on rereading my last post I can see why you thought different.

First .... All your answers in red are the answers that I would give, should I be answering them myself, tho my terms might differ slightly ? At least the way I read them means we are in agreement ...

So I'm a bit puzzled ???

Do you agree that Function follows Form ... that is, function comes about after form has come about, it evolves after ?

First Ques: What is doing or providing the requirement for a Function ?

[Wave symmetry's thermodynamic entropic hydrodynamics...]

Second Ques: Does this function require a designer to shape a form around it ?

[Absolutely not...]

Third Ques: If so, then the function must serve a purpose. Was the purpose in existence before the function existed ?

[Zero purpose__pure chance...]

With these sort of questions ... Each time I answer one to my own satisfaction ... I find that unwittingly I have posed to myself a new one in order to answer the previous one. Each one provides the grounds for a new one to be asked ... until I reach the stage where I ask the ultimate question

[Welcome to the infinite regress__Aporia...]

Ultimate Ques: Does the Universe have or serve a purpose ?

[Geo-Universe__Absolutely none__Only Bio-Creatures attain purpose...]

This question I can find no satisfactory answer to unless I start believing in 'The Spirit in the Sky'. To me the term 'Spirit in the Sky' encompasses all hypothesis that cannot be logically, rationally, reasonably ... (lol) deduced .. but provide temporary satisfaction for all that we don't know.

[No 'Spirit in the Sky...']

How do you avoid the infinite regress to undecidability either way, Greg...?

At my deepest belief, I accept uncertainty ... ummm ... as a given piece of knowledge, as tangible as all other information ... not as a 'missing piece' of knowledge, meaning something that we will eventually discover.

In other words my infinite regress is not infinite, it bottoms out at uncertainty. I believe it is necessary as the only factor that accounts for triggering motion.

This is a very generic answer so don't take me to task. My more expanded view of this is given here CLICK

When you turn it around, then you must answer how function ultimately follows form__same conundrum__What's the eternal form...?

I have no more idea than you ? But my best guess is it displays the properties of a field.

If you say space__Where's it's function...?

If you say motion__From what...?

If you say matter/mass__Where and of What...?

If you say FS__What type and what's it made of...?

If you say energy__From what physical process is energy made...?

If you say infinity__What shape...?

If you say eternity__What's it made of...?


So state it, and answer the preliminary questions above...

My best answer to all of these is in the post I have already given a link to. From that point on I believe all else is explained as best it can be by current scientific opinion.

CLICK

cool bananas ... greg