What and How?

[Meem]

Scenario

There is a place,(one can imagine it product of a programmer something like Tron, a creation something like I-Robt, or even as a God type consciousness) where a world has been created. Within the world are entities designed to think that they are real. The creator of this world, does not believe the creation to be real, but "in reality," the entities are in fact real. The creator interacts with some of them. They try to explain how they are real, but the creator dismisses the claims, "working as intended."

Could they prove that they are real?
How would the entities prove to the creator they are real?
What would it take?

[labelwench]

Scenario

There is a place,(one can imagine it product of a programmer something like Tron, a creation something like I-Robt, or even as a God type consciousness) where a world has been created. Within the world are entities designed to think that they are real. The creator of this world, does not believe the creation to be real, but "in reality," the entities are in fact real. The creator interacts with some of them. They try to explain how they are real, but the creator dismisses the claims, "working as intended."

Could they prove that they are real?
How would the entities prove to the creator they are real?
What would it take?

One could engage in two-way communication, with the proof being verifiable evidence of an exchange of information. What constitutes that proof would first have to be defined.

As with TOE Quest, a 'domain' registered to 'Robert'.

Although I have sent and exchanged e-mails with one who answers to that name at the address offered, is such 'evidence' that 'Robert' exists?

I suppose if I actually went to the physical address and met Robert, and sent myself an e-mail while in his presence, that might be of greater value in verifying each other's existence. Of course, I'd have to give him a hug to demonstrate through tactile means that neither of us is a hologram.......

Welcome back, Meem. Glad to have you messing with our minds once again, lol.....

[Meem]

One could engage in two-way communication, with the proof being verifiable evidence of an exchange of information.
Welcome back, Meem.

Glad to have you messing with our minds once again, lol.....

1) You think you are real, and you were designed for two-way communication. Your proof was also a part of the design element. "Working as intended."

2) This is me messing with my own mind and sharing.

3) The proof. It's in the pudding! Seriously though, I do agree. The thing is, it would have to be some pretty hefty proof in my line of thought to qualify as proof to "the creator." Say like, creating something significant enough that had not been a possibility of the design element in the first place. "If men were meant to fly ...."

[austintorn@aol.com]

1) What is made by the real is always itself real.

2) As for something like whether we function as real illusions, then whatever functions identical to the really real is just as real, as what makes no difference is no difference, so then the faux true would be the same as the true true, for the feeling would be the same. It's only a matter of implementation mechanics (the messenger), but the message itself would be the same.

[Graybeard]

Your not the first to ask this.

A guy called Farid ad-din Attar asked this same question and found an answer in the 'Parliament of Birds'. I have an edition from the 1970s but don't know if it is still available.

The proof eventuates when the few remaing birds that embarked on the journey are led into the hall of God and told to wait ... which they do, and do, and do ...... until the ultimate realisation is reached that just possibly they themselves (the remainder) are God ... and were all along.

Fitzgerald (I tink) wrote a poem of the book ... it finishes

'This was the Parliament of Birds
and this the story of the host who went amiss (those who, for one reason or another did not sustain the journey)
and of the few (30 remained = Simurgh = God)
which better upshot found !

The story, being now recounted,
Lo the ground ... falls underfoot
but this to tell
They're path is thine
follow and fare thee well