[Fredrick]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Know then: that which is in the hands of people, that which they believe, is liable to error. For, in proving or disproving a thing, if a proof is brought forward which is taken from the evidence of our senses, this method, as has become evident, is not perfect; if the proofs are intellectual, the same is true; or if they are traditional, such proofs also are not perfect. Therefore, there is no standard in the hands of people upon which we can rely.

It is interesting that your message (see quote) is my message, Drifter.

Please, explain to me how you can declare the potential to be Stillness and it still having brought forth the universe? I can ask the same question about getting diversity from singularity.

I need to say this: quoting the wise from the past is very good, but applying their words only to others and not to yourself is not so good. I believe we can find common ground in leaving the potential as the potential. If we both can see that the potential is a place we can visit like a room in which we can speak, but not conquer like a house we can lock, then we're set.

I do not reject the idea of Stillness, but I must insist the potential can be a whole lot more. Your claim remains a claim, and it does not matter if fully everyone else agrees with your claim; it it still a claim. And unfortunately it misses the point that this room should not be conquered, only understood (again, see your post in the quote).

[Drifter]

When Awareness [Latent Potentiality] Knows Sensation [Nature] Consciousness is born.

Like Two Golden Birds Perched in the self-same Tree...

The Ego and The True Self...intimate friends and inseperable.

The Former...partakes of the sweet and the bitter fruits of The Tree of Life...

While The Latter looks on...

In Detachment. ~Mundaka Upanishad

Drifter

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Fredrick

It is interesting that your message (see quote) is my message, Drifter.

Please, explain to me how you can declare the potential to be Stillness and it still having brought forth the universe? I can ask the same question about getting diversity from singularity.

I need to say this: quoting the wise from the past is very good, but applying their words only to others and not to yourself is not so good. I believe we can find common ground in leaving the potential as the potential. If we both can see that the potential is a place we can visit like a room in which we can speak, but not conquer like a house we can lock, then we're set.

In the beginning was the word and the word was god...[every other addendum then...ad infinitum... was/is god as well]

I Who Speak

Sometimes As I Write, the 'I' becomes "We” and yet remains 'I.'
There is a Consciousness which, while It remains One, is a symphony of harmoniously blended parts.
I write, and I watch myself writing.
I Know, and yet I wonder at the knowing.
I am the student and, at the same time, I am the Teacher.
As Teacher, I stand in Majesty looking upon the world below.
As student, I look up humbly and amazed.
I speak and, presently, there blends with my voice the melodious Voices of Others.
One Meaning in many tones is unfolded.
So the tones of the seven-stringed Lyre are all sounded; one here, another there, in groups and, finally, all together.
And before this Melody I sit entranced, filled to the brim and more.
I who Speak none will ever know until, on that final Day he finds Himself, when I appear in all My Glory.




~Dr. Franklin Merrell Wolff

Love
Drifter

The I you think I am is not who "I" really am...I am the least...a nobody.

The I you think I am is nothing but fools gold for anyone who has feet of clay...[stuck in materialism/existensialism]
As a nobody though...I'm 24 ct. gold.
Infinitely... "I Am" a King...and finitely a pauper...maybe only 14 ct. tops...=-)

When a child becomes a man he puts away all his childish "things"..., Jesus...Who said That...

and so are you...when you experience "Self-Realization" perhaps we can talk?

"Show me a man who has forsaken words that I might have a word with him."
Lao Tzu

Drifter

[Drifter]

I guess you expect I'm going to put some quotes from actors or philosophers here. Well, get this: Actors don't write their own text, and philosophers aren't always right. Likewise, It's a good idea to watch who you quote.
Actors and most politicians don't write their own lines, and philosophers can be wrong. Take Aristotle's assumption the universe is unchanging as an example... But, if you still insist on me giving quotes from people I like or agree with on a good number of matters...
"There is no such thing as a unique scientific vision, any more than there is a unique poetic vision. Science is a mosaic of partial and conflicting visions. But there is one common element in these visions. The common element is rebellion against the restrictions imposed by the locally prevailing culture, Western or Eastern as the case may be. It is no more Western than it is Arab or Indian or Japanese or Chinese. Arabs and Indians and Japanese and Chinese had a big share in the development of modern science. And two thousand years earlier, the beginnings of science were as much Babylonian and Egyptian as Greek. One of the central facts about science is that it pays no attention to East and West and North and South and black and yellow and white. It belongs to everybody who is willing to make the effort to learn it." -Freeman Dyson, "The Scientist as Rebel"
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert A. Heinlein
"Without laws or compulsion, men would dwell in harmony." -- Lao Tzu, Tao-Te Ching
"The progressive development of man is vitally dependent on invention." -Nikola Tesla
"Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est." -Sir Francis Bacon
"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night." -Isaac Asimov
"It is the duty of every true deist to vindicate the justice of God against the evils of the Bible." -Ethan Allen
"To desire an ordinary life to is to deny yourself the ability to lead an extraordinary life." -Brother Charles Lazar
"When you gaze long into the abyss... the abyss also gazes into you." - Frederick Nietzsche
"Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
(He who fights monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.) -Frederick Nietzsche aphorism, Jenseits von Gut und Böse (Beyond Good and Evil)
"What is great in man is he is a bridge and not a goal." -Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
"I live in my own place have never copied nobody even half, and at any master who lacks the grace to laugh at himself - I laugh." -Quote inscribed over the door to Friedrich Nietzsche's house
"Schadenfreude ist die schönste Freude." -Unknown
"People talk about the middle of the road as though it were unacceptable. Actually, all human problems, excepting morals, come into the gray areas. Things are not all black and white. There has to be compromises. The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters." -Dwight D. Eisenhower

"The only way they'll ever get me into church will be feet first." -Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Anything that is too stupid to be spoken is sung." -Voltaire
"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the Covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment... laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind... as that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, institutions must advance also, to keep pace with the times... We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain forever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." -Thomas Jefferson
More from Ike:
"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war."
"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its stupidity. War settles nothing."
"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion."
"If all that Americans want is security, they can go to prison. They’ll have enough to eat, a bed and a roof over their heads. But if an American wants to preserve his dignity and his equality as a human being, he must not bow his neck to any dictatorial government."
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Read "Confession"...~Leonard Tolstoy... ?

D.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Fredrick

Drifter, I have no conflict if you decide to fill in the potential with Stillness. At the same time, you should also have no conflict if someone else fills in the potential with Conflict, Love or Divine Desire. That is the point I am trying to make: the potential is to be seen as the potential, and to make a decision for yourself what that potential is is of course okay, but it is not the whole truth. The whole truth is that the potential cannot be known other than having brought forth the material universe, which as we all know is not a place of Stillness.

The potential is to be understood, not conquered. From the materialized state we can say a few things about the potential, but not many things, and what we can say cannot be other than somewhat vague. But non-stillness coming forth out of Stillness without a reason is very doubtful; to me that does not follow logic of mind nor heart. So I require a reason within the potential state to bring out our materialized universe.

Deciding that the potential is singular is equal to saying that god is an old man with a handsome white beard just like you have.

all "this IS "That" A Hall of mirrors...

"Plotinus seemed ashamed of being in a body,"
The body is in the Soul The soul is not in the body. He ask us to reverse out thinking...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/timewarp/plotinus.html

Plotinus discusses two classes of virtue: the 'civic' virtues and the 'purifying' virtues. The 'civic' virtues include: prudence, justice, fortitude, rectitude, and moral integrity in applying all the other virtues appropriately. The 'purifiying' virtues are a higher class of virtues, including knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, which 'purify' the Soul, and which enable the Soul to transcend itself.

http://books.google.com/books?id=35HC2Ua3VMoC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=%22The +Body+is+in+the+Soul%22+Plotinus&source=web&ots=dt 5McS16VA&sig=E6Epz6ShJhtfX6aYrQI0sjRCOnE&hl=en&sa= X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/plotinus.htm

A little 'surfing' revealed this interesting,
by way of swift- perusal...'piece'...

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_o...g-the-spi.html












How'm I doin brother?

I am That I am and yu are too...
Drifter

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Fredrick

It is interesting that your message (see quote) is my message, Drifter.

Please, explain to me how you can declare the potential to be Stillness and it still having brought forth the universe? I can ask the same question about getting diversity from singularity.

I need to say this: quoting the wise from the past is very good, but applying their words only to others and not to yourself is not so good. I believe we can find common ground in leaving the potential as the potential. If we both can see that the potential is a place we can visit like a room in which we can speak, but not conquer like a house we can lock, then we're set.

I do not reject the idea of Stillness, but I must insist the potential can be a whole lot more. Your claim remains a claim, and it does not matter if fully everyone else agrees with your claim; it it still a claim. And unfortunately it misses the point that this room should not be conquered, only understood (again, see your post in the quote).

In my womb with a view... there are many mansions...
Without Spiritual attribute's...my beloved son...you will be born with handicaps in the next realm...
You cannot acquire them there...after you are born there...
Like the child born into this world...without eyes to see or ears to hear or an arm or a leg...or to smell, taste or touch/feel...how will "you"... deal with That?...

In order to evolve... we must look ahead...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2542898552948290442&q=&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=16633417884518749&q=&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7209068454812798114&q=&hl=en

so...

I see the unseen...not what your looking at..."Point out the moon to a cat and it sniffs the finger..." ~Wei Wu Wei...

[Drifter]

Intelligent..Knowledgeable..Educated. Do you use these words interchangeably or do they mean distinct and separate things to you?

My understanding of them is this:

I = you can understand things
K = you know things
E = you've been to school

I is the most useful; K is over-rated; E is probably useless.

They mean distinct and separate things. Knowledgeable is easy to understand and it makes perfect sense. I don't use educated as much because it gives the person less credit for what they know and how they learned and how intelligent they are. Intelligent is much different than the others and it involves a more unique perspective. I definitely know when someone is intelligent or knowledgeable or both. Knowledgeable goes both ways to educated and intelligent, while educated does not imply intelligent at all and vise versa.

Someone can be extremely intelligent, but for whatever reason not be knowledgeable ("book-smart") or educated (having a degree..which, I believe, can be bought if one has enough money and one's parents can "endow" some building..having a degree can be meaningless, as we have plenty of politicians who are great examples).

Your completely right. But we function through knowledge and it seems like the more intelligent you are the more knowledge you might aquire versus not being intelligent and not gaining anything from anything.

So you consider yourself to be intelligent. You believe people who are knowledgeable can answer questions you may have and give reliable advice..and that an "educated" person is book smart. Thanks for your answer.

They are distinct, though there is some correlation. If you are intelligent and live in a community that offers good quality education, you will probably be educated, and you will have gained some knowledge. But it is perfectly possible for someone to be highly intelligent and have missed the chance to be educated. One can also become knowledgeable without formal education. And a fool who is forced through the education system can be educated but neither intelligent nor knowledgeable (a certain President springs to mind).

Intelligent - has to do with I.Q.
Knowledgeable - knows alot - source undefined
Educated - has been to school or self-taught

But an "educated" person can have a degree and be dumb as mud..and also have learned what was necessary to pass tests by rote memorization but never understood what he/she was learning. Thanks for your answer, Scifisuz.

Intelligence is like gas in the car. Doesn't mean you actually use it. Knowledge and education are very similar to me. It means you have gained something by education but that it is still just knowledge, stuff you know. But then if you know how to use it, apply the knowledge, learn from your education by doing, then you get to the level of wisdom. That's the peak for me, using my intelligence to gain knowledge and then knowing how to use it for good.

However, there are some "educated" people..I won't name names..who have a degree..from a recognizable college..who are as dumb as a wheelbarrow of mud (not to defame or disparage mud). Some people are extremely knowledgeable who have very little education..they have gone out on their own and tried to learn things...there are some extremely intelligent people who, for one reason or another, may not be very knowledgeable or educated. Does that change anything in your answer? Thanks for your response, galeanda!
Maybe, though I think that you can get educated just by watching grandpa fix the car or dad fix a chair. I do know many people that have book learning but then it's just stale and stagnant without moving into the wisdom stage by not using it for anything. If Johnny watched his Grandpa changing sparkplugs he is getting educated and now has some knowledge on how to do it himself. If he does it on his own car when he gets his first car, then he has gained wisdom and knows how to maintain his car. But if Johnny just read it in a book or saw his Grandpa doing it and didn't work his brain to load it into memory and realize he can use it, it's just education, because he doesn't 'know' how to use it or doesn't see the purpose, and Johnny is an idiot

Good points, all..to me "educated" has meant in a formal setting...school to be exact. That was precisely why I asked the question..to learn what others think of when they hear those words. Thanks, galeanda , for your additional perspective. I appreciate it!

"Intelligence" is raw ability and "knowledgeable" speaks for itself. "Educated" is formal training that includes the latter but not necessarily the former.

One can be "educated", e.g., have a degree, and still be very dumb..one can be "knowledgeable", but perhaps it is by rote and the person doesn't really understand what he/she has memorized or the greater implications of that knowledge..intelligence is always there to serve one well..it exists separate and apart from "book-learning" and "degrees"...I will take an intelligent person any day over an "educated" or "knowledgeable" person. Thanks for your answer, O..

Aye.. agreed. "Knowledge" is the tool. "Intelligence" is the hand that uses it and "Education" is the skill taught how to. Without these three elements in harmony one can easily fit the term "educated idiot"
That is very poetic and extremely well stated! Thank you!

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A Warriors Spirit...

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Fredrick

It is interesting that your message (see quote) is my message, Drifter.

Please, explain to me how you can declare the potential to be Stillness and it still having brought forth the universe? I can ask the same question about getting diversity from singularity.

I need to say this: quoting the wise from the past is very good, but applying their words only to others and not to yourself is not so good. I believe we can find common ground in leaving the potential as the potential. If we both can see that the potential is a place we can visit like a room in which we can speak, but not conquer like a house we can lock, then we're set.

I do not reject the idea of Stillness, but I must insist the potential can be a whole lot more. Your claim remains a claim, and it does not matter if fully everyone else agrees with your claim; it it still a claim. And unfortunately it misses the point that this room should not be conquered, only understood (again, see your post in the quote).

Know then: that which is in the hands of people, that which they believe, is liable to error. For, in proving or disproving a thing, if a proof is brought forward which is taken from the evidence of our senses, this method, as has become evident, is not perfect; if the proofs are intellectual, the same is true; or if they are traditional, such proofs also are not perfect. Therefore, there is no standard in the hands of people upon which we can rely.

"But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained."

The Bible is 66 books by some 40 authors in three languages Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic... all tanslated somewhat conspicuously...

The trinity of The Bab, Bahaullah, and Abdul L Baha's works were sone so By Bahaullah's grandson, Harvard educated Shogi Effendi...The three's works are original and the fourth was also a direct descendant [Spirit]from the lineage...go figure???...?

They all walked this Earth...no speculation about that... circa 1800s-1900s and many are the hands of the cause.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Fredrick

It is interesting that your message (see quote) is my message, Drifter.

Please, explain to me how you can declare the potential to be Stillness and it still having brought forth the universe? I can ask the same question about getting diversity from singularity.

I need to say this: quoting the wise from the past is very good, but applying their words only to others and not to yourself is not so good. I believe we can find common ground in leaving the potential as the potential. If we both can see that the potential is a place we can visit like a room in which we can speak, but not conquer like a house we can lock, then we're set.

I do not reject the idea of Stillness, but I must insist the potential can be a whole lot more. Your claim remains a claim, and it does not matter if fully everyone else agrees with your claim; it it still a claim. And unfortunately it misses the point that this room should not be conquered, only understood (again, see your post in the quote).

Know then: that which is in the hands of people, that which they believe, is liable to error. For, in proving or disproving a thing, if a proof is brought forward which is taken from the evidence of our senses, this method, as has become evident, is not perfect; if the proofs are intellectual, the same is true; or if they are traditional, such proofs also are not perfect. Therefore, there is no standard in the hands of people upon which we can rely.

"But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained."

The Bible is 66 books by some 40 authors in three languages Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic... all tanslated somewhat conspicuously...mostly as hearsay...as neither did Jesus leave anything "personally in writing...and "God" is not in the "Publishing business"!...

The trinity of The Bab, Bahaullah, and Abdul L Baha's works were done so By Bahaullah's grandson, Harvard educated Shogi Effendi...[Abdul L Baha's son] The three's works are original and the fourth was also a direct descendant [Spirit]from the lineage[records bear this out Muhhamad...go figure???...?

So Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Mohhamad, The Bab and Bahaullah have all been what might be considered The Messengers of God, and have the sourse and inspiration for the awakening of the masses...by awakening I mean to say gnowing experiencing individually the essence of who we "Really are" and as one collective "The Human-Race" occupying one planet...

We Are NOT a Human Searching For a Spiritual Experience,
We Are a Beautiful Spirit Immersed In a Human Experience!

A Soul within The Over Soul.

An Inherrent Spark of Divinity.

A Lamp of Light Unto Others.

Awakening is a flowering of your innermost being.
It is a revelation of your essence,
hidden by long eons of self-delusion,
ignorance,
unbounded desires.

Enlightenment is an ending as well as a beginning:
the ending of the old, veiled, dark ego,
its longings, illusions, frustrations;
the beginning of a vast expanse,
an infinite field of the Unknown,
an adventure in consciousness.

It is a revolution:
it represents danger to the old way of life,
to old ways of thinking and living.

It is freedom from the known and the unknown;
from the real and the unreal;
from any appearance of division between you and Truth.

It is the abandoning of beliefs, dis-beliefs,
presumptions and stances,
self, ego,
call it what you will,
or call it nothing,
what it is.

It is the Path of the golden Dawn,
the Path out of the Night of Time
into the Bursting daylight of Eternal Now...

- Petros

They all walked this Earth...no speculation about that... circa 1800s-1900s and many are the hands of the cause.

[Fredrick]

Originally Posted by Drifter

In the beginning was the word and the word was god...

I find it interesting to communicate with you, Drifter. You have access to a lot of knowledge, and I hope I don't offend you when I say that you are using the knowledge as a true warrior; I mean well.

I think we have a lot in common, and as I mentioned to Melanie, we don't always agree. Yet I feel that what we are not agreeing on is rather small. It is not totally unimportant, but also not super important.

I consider the following: when having to start a project, it is wise to sit down and think about what needs to be done. Yet it is possible to sit and think for too long and make a project start (too) late that way. Sometimes it is handy to just do something to get a project started. While continuing to work on the project some adjustment may need to be made at work already done. These adjustments can even be of such a nature that the very first steps were re-done later on. The finished project has then no first steps anymore. We know that that is a paradox, but paradoxes occur.

I think we are delivering almost the same, Drifter, but I feel you are uncomfortable with me not making that final step and come to an agreement. From my side, I think you are stepping into an area that belongs to god and not to you. That's what I meant with the room in which we can speak, but one that cannot (should not) be locked for others.

We were all created in god's image, but to then say that, based on the divine image you received, you know god's image is not fully correct. We are the product, and the product does not equal the origen. God is a whole lot more than what you say god is with your words.

Claiming the origen is Stillnes, for instance, is claiming to know god. That should not be done. But you are in good company as well. I was very surprised to read Einstein having said that "God does not play dice," after considering QM. I fell off my chair in amazement, because with these words Einstein made the mistake of claiming to know god. I can understand what he said, and I realize he was just human as well, but that does not make it correct.