[Guille]

JAK and sub,

There is nothing, absolutelly nothing in the universe (s). The laws are on top of things. Forces, energy, matter....All are under the laws. Living things have it harder because they are under the laws of nature of existence, which are the ones mentioned, and the laws of light (having to eat, dirnk...others). And last in the level of liberty (free-will), it is our race. YES, we can say to be able of doijng much more than any living thing with which we have contact with, and more than any other thing, but, we are under existence alws, life laws, human laws, individual ethical and moral laws....Conclusion, free-will either doesn't exist or is an illusion.

[JAK]

Originally Posted by <<>> JAK and sub, ... Conclusion, free-will either doesn't exist or is an illusion.

I believe there is merit to your conclusion. If the mind is a manifestation of energy (especially the laws of thermodynamics), then it is an expression of the underlying laws guiding it. Though the expression is convoluted and extremely complex, it is nevertheless the result of these laws. As such, free will is the result of the unique action of these laws within a human.

It is remotely akin to an expanding balloon. Due to the internal air pressure, the balloon surface pushes outward. Similarly, due to internal pressures (primarily, emotions and other hypothalamic activity) we, too, "push outward" - go to work, get food, buy things, etc. Yet, the internal pressures are merely the result of energy in motion.

[subversion]

I think you're confusing what your saying Guille. I understand what you mean, that we are not "free" in a sense. Nevertheless, we do have free will. In other words, at any given fork in the road you can choose to go left or right. Free will doesn't mean "ability to do whatever we want." It simply means we have the right to choose. free will is what characterizes life, so all lifeforms have free-will and one life-form can't have more than the next. If lifeforms didn't have free will then they wouldn't move unless the wind was blowing them around or gravity was moving them or something. You couldn't move your arm on your own accord if you didn't have the freedom to will it into motion. Thus free will does exist. Now freedom, that's another story, and a very sticky issue at that.

[Guille]

subversion,

I understand your point.

From your pointwe can conclude that animals do have inteligence. They can choose and to choose we neeed thinking and thus, inteligence. So animals do think. This is quite strange to think about....Maybe what they think is limited:
1. by there little inteligence capacity
2. by little knowledge capacity

[Guille]

I have thought and concluded something but I'm not sure, let me know what you think about it:

Inteligence is the ability to think. (thinking is all the other things we have mentioned before: communication, relationship finding, deduction....).

[JAK]

Originally Posted by subversion I think you're confusing what your saying Guille. I understand what you mean, that we are not "free" in a sense. Nevertheless, we do have free will. In other words, at any given fork in the road you can choose to go left or right. ...

This is an awkward issue. At the fork in the road, all of the "nature/nurture" aspects of your brain growth come to bear upon the choice. And due to the unique and extremely intricate, as well as dynamic, structure of your brain, when presented with the fork in the road, your choice is more of a compulsion. You are compelled in your choice. In other words, you are a victim of who you are. Your "make-up" forces your choice. It is competed in the nucleus Reticularis Thalami (nRT) - part of the diencephalon above the brainstem. And the neural circuit of greatest empowerment controls your action.

If you are undecided about which "fork" to choose, this indecision is also part of the strongest neural circuit in control - the circuit controlling analysis ("pros" and "cons") which is included in the circuits of "behavioral selection" (the "what do I do next?" circuitry).

We are driven by our own unique make-ups. "Free will" is an illusion.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by AntonioLao is it something that every person born with? Or is it acquired from experience? Or some from birth and some from experience? in any case, it is needed to survive in this complex world. Is it right to say that failure to communicate is an indication for a lack of intelligence? The brain might be full of great ideas but until these are communicated, nothing is accomplished.

I have decided to quote the starting post. So we center.

Well, I think that intelligence is just the ability of having knowledge.

Knowledge appears in different ways: born with, learned through experience, understanding...But knowledge is just information.

Communication represents part of intelligence, but not all. If you can't communicate at all in any way, you don't lack of inteligence. Inteligence is actually your thinking ability also. If what we say does not express much inteligence it must not be taken as lack of this, but as a failure of language.

I have quoted this in other threads, but anyway: "Languages are the limit of our minds and of our world" Ludwig wittgenstein. By our world he means our perception of things and minds the things we think about. So, I can think, imagen, 100 meters^3 of ideas (imagen them to be physical). But what I can express of my ideas and thoughts is only 10 meters^3. This is a major porblem we know have to fight.

For example, mind-communication is said by some scientists to be a reality around 2008. If this is true, the advances that humanity will make are inbelievable now.

[subversion]

Originally Posted by <<>> Communication represents part of intelligence, but not all. If you can't communicate at all in any way, you don't lack of inteligence. Inteligence is actually your thinking ability also. .

and what is your thinking ability but communication of neurons in your brain??

[Guille]

Originally Posted by subversion and what is your thinking ability but communication of neurons in your brain??

The electric charge is knowledge. Thinking ability is the use of these (interaction). Inteligence is the possibility of the thinking (disposition of thought marked by knowledge).

[AntonioLao]

Originally Posted by GUILLE Knowledge appears in different ways: born with...

this knowledge that is born with is also called basic instinct.