My Family and other Animals

[Meem]

Is the Family of Man just another species on this Planet, like all the other Species ?

Some rare gift that separates us from all the others and makes us special.

We don't appear to carry any particular trait that is unique to us, and us alone ... every trait we lay claim to appears to be shared by other species to a greater or lesser extent.

Yes, and yes we do.

We have a greater capacity for love, unfortunately for most, it appears to be coupled with hate. We have the ability to be stewards of the others, or murders. I guess it's a loaded option.
We have the ability to pass detailed information along even if we don't reproduce. "Hey you guys in the future reading this, don't do what we did, be better than us. Learn from our mistakes and forgive of us of them. Try to remember us for the precious few among us who really did make some difference, even if in the ultimate sense of eternal time, it makes no difference ... during our time it did, he did, she did, they did. You can too. May you forget our faces and names, but please don't forget our footsteps. We have walked in many places where you should dare not go, for reasons that makes us much worse then wild animals."

Well, I suppose there is only one case where wild animals were on par with us and our evils, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsavo_maneaters

[austintorn@aol.com]

Actually, Poseidon causes plate tectonics, and Ra initiates nuclear fusion in the sun.

Just joking, for yet no one today(except Pat Robertson types) appeals to these gods to explain earthquakes or solar fusion; yet, it is proposed that a Higher Realm (called God) directs these things as well as all nature and especially the mind of the brain (via a soul).

These thoughts are from the mythic ages, and are somewhat still here today. Some would go to the extremes of throwing all of science out the window as ‘dogma’; yet, their computers, devices, and appliances run pretty well on this ‘dogma’.

Let us then, ignore this stance as nonsense and deal with the case that evolution indeed happens (having survived alll inquiry) and that God directs it, for that must become the fallback position, such as Prof believes in.

For starters, evolution is not goal-oriented, so we can discard the (biological teleological) argument for the existence of God, which claims that postulating God is necessary to account for purposiveness in nature. Evolution is a blind watchmaker.

To review and elaborate more, Theistic evolution is the theological view that God creates new species through evolution. The advocates wish to reserve a special place for humans, separate from the animals. But this is not a scientifically justifiable stance given the many evolutionary predecessors of human beings.

Animals are ‘brutalized’ and humans humanized to make the alleged gap as big as possible: humans are characterized as the only creatures with reason, empathy, a (rich) emotional life, altruism, culture, identity, and language. Yet all these characteristics have been observed to a greater or lesser extent in nonhuman animals, especially in other primates.

More another time, for we are going to ride down the trail to a cheap buffet.

[Meem]

Austin, is the above a reply to my post? Just curious.

Yet all these characteristics have been observed to a greater or lesser extent in nonhuman animals, especially in other primates.

A nuclear warhead is no different than the sun! I mean it's just to a lesser extent, the same thing!
Nonhuman animals practice stewardship of many other species, and they write books, build computers, schools, hospitals? Are you from another planet? I wonder if somewhere other primates are questioning "why are we here, how do we save polar bears, what effect are we having on the environment, how can I make my tree more ... banana efficient?"


I'd say that's a pretty large skew on actual science. And I didn't want to mention the G'word but since you gave me the opportunity, would you not say that "God" is a very complex issue?

A natural evolutionary development thru the Natural Selection Process that leads to complexity

Are you saying we are the absolute apex of evolution? That "super" beings are an impossible and improbable evolutionary result? Seems like we have come a long way from amino acids, inanimate matter ... I guess this is the end.

Lets not Rush ... to conclusions. Saying you know where evolution will or will not go, or has come from or started, is almost as stupendous as Pat Robertson knowing "God's will." That was the forbidden fruit, not knowledge, but assuming "I know" God's will. I'll make you a deal, you can call me god, and I will call you evolution. Sound good?

Confronted with some of that criticism, Limbaugh slammed a caller as “close-minded.”
“What I’m illustrating here is that you’re a blockhead,” Limbaugh shot back. “What I’m illustrating here is that you’re a close-minded bigot who is ill-informed.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/201...politico/31539

[austintorn@aol.com]

Austin, is the above a reply to my post? Just curious. —Meem

No, I'm just begininning a short series on Theistic evolution. It's the next attempt that is beyond the failed attempts of Creationism, Intelligent Design and Irreducible Complexity.

Evolution is an immensely slow, wasteful, pitiless, and cruel process—hardly the most elegant process of creation open to a goal-oriented, omnipotent, and benevolent God.

If humanity is the final goal of creation, whence the 3,500,000,000! years since the origin of life, or the 13.7 billion years since the Big Bang? What is the point of this immense amount of time if human beings and their world are the pinnacle of the Almighty's creation?

Good sunset today.

[Meem]

If humanity is the final goal of creation, whence the 3,500,000,000! years since the origin of life, or the 13.7 billion years since the Big Bang?

For the first figure, you forgot the on earth part. For the figures, the first might be a close proximity for Earth, might not. Please don't mistake that to mean 2000 years, I would cry. For the second figure, that's something I wouldn't bet my life on. Was there a big bang, or is there just a big banging, maybe "god" is like the energizer bunny?

How is theistic evolution failed? The thing that gets me is time, that is an irreducible complexity. And let us just imagine, you Austin are a super being that does not "suffer-time," how would you measure it, if it were part of you? Earth, solar, galactic, cluster, or maybe "universal" (I know this one is debatable, and highly speculative) revolutions? And how would it compare to my measurements? Would a "day" for me be the same as a "day" for you? Doesn't even seem like it would make sense at all.

Why would humans be the only creation? And how on earth could I even begin to measure the pinnacle of the Almighty's creation? I think I know though, it's call "heavens." =P
I guess stars would be the starting point for that measure, the eternal forms.

[labelwench]

Well, I suppose there is only one case where wild animals were on par with us and our evils, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsavo_maneaters
Originally posted by Meem.

An interesting link, Meem, and the only 'evil' in the conduct of the mane-less lions, is that which we apply to it.

The lions were very intelligent and resourceful in recognizing humans as an alternate prey species, and there must have been a predisposing factor, or factors, in their continued predation on people. Animals will usually choose the path of least resistance, and we, as hairless, fang-less and claw-less, would be easy prey for a hungry lion. Some animals are so clever, that 'habituation' can be predicated from but one successful experience.

Humans, also, are notoriously sloppy in leaving waste and other attractants around. What we call artifacts, could also be called garbage, the 'remains of the day' of a day gone by. It has long been advised, 'Do not feed the wild life.' Leaving food, garbage, or improperly disposed of human remains, may all have been inducements, if the lions were enduring other stresses that may not have been immediately apparent or well documented in that day.

As a side note, coyotes in various parts of eastern Canada, are beginning to stalk and attack humans, undoubtedly in response to lost of habitation and through becoming habituated to our species.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...tack-died.html

CBC news reported another case, two nights ago, in a different region, where a 220 lb. man was being stalked by coyotes, but he had wilderness experience and acted boldly enough to discourage an attack. He admitted that it was most unnerving to encounter and experience such behavior in a usually timid wild canine species.

[labelwench]

For starters, evolution is not goal-oriented, so we can discard the (biological teleological) argument for the existence of God, which claims that postulating God is necessary to account for purposiveness in nature. Evolution is a blind watchmaker.
Originally posted by Austintorn

We see evolution differently then, Austin, as the process of evolution seems most intent on the continuation of 'life forms', though I will agree that it does not seem to have a vested interest in which forms are successful in relation to which others.

I likewise contemplate, that the life-force may well be the exclusive domain of that which has been fortunate enough to have won the lottery of coming into existence.

Still, I tend to wonder why all species of my experience offer a great struggle to survive, when the alternative of doing nothing is by far the easier choice?

[leskey]

Austintorn quote:
"Evolution is a blind watchmaker."

Not just blind...deaf, dumb, handless, illiterate...actually, brainless...absolutely incorporeal...but then so is the genetic code - that packet of information responsible for all life.

Austin, please expand on the delivery of this most sophisticated of all information out of this immensely slow, wasteful, pitiless, and cruel process, because that would seem to reflect the manner in which humans learn - which, believe it or not, requires some intelligence.

Austintorn quote:
"What is the point of this immense amount of time if human beings and their world are the pinnacle of the Almighty's creation."

Time is only relative to humans...ie, it has significance only to us.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Austintorn quote:
Austin, please expand on the delivery of this most sophisticated of all information out of this immensely slow, wasteful, pitiless, and cruel process, because that would seem to reflect the manner in which humans learn - which, believe it or not, requires some intelligence.

OK, but court is just about to convene; it's just a few minutes to 10.

Humans even now take much of their early life to learn, some never, but the "wasteful, pitiless, etc." is really about how evolution operates. Plus, on another waste-front, the vast majority of mutants are selectively neutral or negative with regard to the evolution and survival of Homo sapiens, and thus their evolution is "wasteful" if measured against the goal of producing human beings. Such a wasteful process is hardly consonant with a goal-oriented, omnipotent, and omniscient God. (Hey, I wonder if God cause mutations to direct evolution? Well, they sure seem random, plus some are bad and many are neutral.) I will push for a life sentence for time-wasting.

"Oh, here comes the judge. All rise"

The case against theistic evolution continues… The honorable Graybeard presiding; Austin P. Torney continuing as lawyer for the prosecution (since his name just about contains the letters attorney)…

“I call the family tree to the witness stand… but, wait, oh my God, there are some others, too…many of them long gone!”

The testimony:

There is no progressive trend in evolution toward the development of human beings. Evolution can be seen as a huge tree with many branching points, not a direct line to humans. We are just a not-yet-extinct part of one of the very many branches of the enormous tree of life.

“I now call upon the extinct.”

Testimony:

What was the point of all us extinct animals, if the goal of creation is man and his surrounding nature? To what purpose were the dinosaurs? What was the point of the trilobites? These groups of animals did not even contribute to the origin of humans.

The development of life has been interrupted by innumerable extinctions, some with so many different plant and animal species dying out in the same time period that they have been called mass extinctions.

Judge Graybeard, having worked for ten minutes straight now, calls a recess for a very long lunch…

[Meem]

Austin,

I almost get the sense you walk around somedays and have no clue what your life is for. "What's the point of us?" Who's fault is that, God's or evolution?