My Family and other Animals

[Meem]

Defense: Objection

Judge: on what grounds?

Defense: I'm not sure where to start, badgering and leading the witness, in the name of defending the prosecution. Absurdity, your honor?

Judge: Upheld, stricken from the record, for the record.

Prosecution: Objection

Judge: Overruled.

Prosecution: on what grounds?

Judge: The object of the court and the prosecution is to make it's case, not make it's case as to why it's case should be made. We aren't here for any-one's opinion but the courts. Though you are in it, you are the court.

Prosecution: But

Judge: If it's and buts were candies and nuts, we'd all be fruitcakes.

[leskey]

My tardy response is due to the failure of notifications of further posts in this thread (we may have to blame Robert's 'playing'), so I've only just discovered your reply, Greg.

The Judge: You can't just say this ... you can propose it as an alternative, and provide reasoning why is it so ? There are other alternatives, with reasoning, that do not require a conscious process

Of course I can just say it...I have free will - LOL!

By it's very connotation, thoughtlessness more often entails negative or destructive consequences, whereas (as evidenced by the actions of homo sapiens) conscious decisions which adhere to Laws, will more probably have constructive or creative outcomes.

True ... but it has nothing to do with the previous statement ? The reason it is so instinctive is because it is beneficial, and therefore less beneficial go extinct ... such as 'not-instinctive' to procreate ?

The statements you quoted are separate and distinct. Consciousness is inherent in higher life forms (eg homo sapiens), and necessary for all constructively creative processes attributable to those lifeforms. Pro-creation is naturally instinctive to all life, including higher life forms.

IMO, creation of the universe can be considered the result of the first act of will (or first conscious decision) adhering to Laws or Codes of behaviour and, as such, the first act of pro-creation because it resulted in consciousness (the highest manifestation of sentience). Consciousness, when intellect is applied constructively (ie in accordance with Laws and Codes of behaviour), is creative in the best possible way.

Why must a plan, purpose or intention be acknowledged ? Once again there are alternatives that do not require a plan, and yet still provide the most desirable (most fit) outcome. These alternative provide logical sequences that are backed by biology and fossil records.

What reasoning do you provide that leads to a preconceived plan ?

I provide the same reasoning as usual: the pre-existence of Laws and Codes would indicate the pre-existence of intelligence. So, the act of the first conscious intelligence resulted in the advent of further conscious intelligence - pro-creation.

Once again, what evidence for a mission statement ... and, just out of interest, what is that mission statement.

In two paragraphs, you propose a non-disputable purpose, without evidence, and then speculate that while choice be allowed, 'strong' individuals must be contained by 'bending the knee' to this undefined purpose ... else they 'marshal' all power ??? And that wouldn't be fair to the less strong ?? Do all dictatorships start out as mild censorship and benevolence ?

Your proposal requires 'checks and balances' and you implicitly admit this in your statement ... ?

Evolution is self governing, and needs no checks and balances. Occam's Razor ??

I was quoted out of order...must've been an accident on your part...

To have "a plan, purpose or intention to refine information to achieve the most desirable outcome" could be considered a mission statement.

Humanity alone possesses the conscious will and intellectual capacity to exercise consciousness to destructive effect. This results in squanderous waste and definitely does not comply with Occam's Razor..."??" It is evident, therefore, that humanity must also conform to self-applied Laws (mission statements: Codes of behaviour), if for no other reason, than to reverse this state of affairs.

[Graybeard]

The statements you quoted are separate and distinct. Consciousness is inherent in higher life forms (eg homo sapiens), and necessary for all constructively creative processes attributable to those lifeforms. Pro-creation is naturally instinctive to all life, including higher life forms.

IMO, creation of the universe can be considered the result of the first act of will (or first conscious decision) adhering to Laws or Codes of behaviour and, as such, the first act of pro-creation because it resulted in consciousness (the highest manifestation of sentience)

I like the red ...... lol

If I temporarily grant you this, for experimental debate,.... creation of the universe can be considered the result of the first act of will (or first conscious decision)

Who, or what, performed the first act of will ?

I don't mean 'Aum'



cool bananas ... greg

[leskey]

I like the red ...... lol

If I temporarily grant you this, for experimental debate,.... [I]creation of the universe can be considered the result of the first act of will (or first conscious decision)

Who, or what, performed the first act of will ?

I don't mean 'Aum' ]

cool bananas ... greg

So pleased you liked the red.

At the risk of being repetitious, please note the red:

Point noted, Austin...let's leave off the 'er,' since it's used to express hesitation .

Provided a plan, purpose or intention to refine information to achieve the most desirable outcome is acknowledged, the details pre-conception are beyond our reckoning and must be at the liberty of individual, personal choice. Further, this privilege of choice should not in any way become insitutionalized in order to marshall power. Acknowledgement of and adherence to the 'mission statement' by the individual, will ensure the fair, reasonable and equitable distribution of power across all humanity.

Adoption of this 'mission statement' must inevitably result in the total re-design of the methods of human interaction and open new avenues for the co-operative advancement of human endeavour.

I use the term "beyond our reckoning" in the sense that it is dependent upon faith...as all truth must be.

[austintorn@aol.com]

So, now, much of the testimony is complete, and so perhaps the case will go to the jury of Dave, Lloyd, Max, and Tim, to be joined there by Graybeard and Austin.

Note: we accept donations that may sway our decision.

[melanie]

I like the red ...... lol

If I temporarily grant you this, for experimental debate,.... creation of the universe can be considered the result of the first act of will (or first conscious decision)

Who, or what, performed the first act of will ?

I don't mean 'Aum'



cool bananas ... greg

Hello Greg....my first response to your question would be DESIRE but then desire for what and by whom?
-but by thinking about this deeply enough, we come to the dream substance analogy.
The deeper you go into reality, the dreamier it becomes,
until you realize, the gross material realm is just an elaborate trick of the senses... (illusory)


I'm not sure if this will shed some light on your question.

It has been taken from a link that Drifter has just supplied over on another thread.
See if if stirs a remembrance in you as to who you really are ?
as we each hold within ourselves a quality that is inherent of our true nature or essence ie (Source)

From Rene’ Daumal’s, Mount Analogue comes,

“I am dead because I lack desire;
I lack desire because I think I possess;
I think I possess because I do not try to give.
In trying to give, you see that you have nothing;
Seeing you have nothing, you try to give of yourself;
Trying to give of yourself, you see that you are nothing;
Seeing you are nothing, you desire to become;
In desiring to become, you begin to live.”



Deep within each of us a creative spark, a tiny piece of God,
that is not content to curse the darkness, but strives to light a candle, however small.
Brought to the unfamiliar territory of death we begin to explore and learn from our new environment.
Death becomes one of our most important teachers.

Meaning that THIS natural phenomena we know as ''existence'' is both dead and alive simultaneously.
Man and all things live in the Imagination, ( Image- Nation) for t-here is NoWHere else.

[Graybeard]

Very good Mel ..... And it did stir a remembrance in me ... and ...

I found the story of Mount Analog very interesting. especially as this Mountain can only be perceived by realising that one has travelled further in traversing it than one would by travelling in a straight line. And its rock, Peradam, has very unusual qualities

• "One finds here, very rarely in the low lying areas, more frequently as one goes farther up, a clear and extremely hard stone that is spherical and varies in size—a kind of crystal, but a curved crystal, something extraordinary and unknown on the rest of the planet. Among the French of Port-des-Singes, it is called peradam. Ivan Lapse remains puzzled by the formation and root meaning of this word. It may mean, according to him, “harder than diamond,” and it is; or “father of the diamond,” and they say that the diamond is in fact the product of the degeneration of the peradam by a sort of quartering of the circle or, more precisely, cubing of the sphere.
• Or again, the word may mean “Adam’s stone,” having some secret and profound connection to the original nature of man. The clarity of this stone is so great and its index of refraction so close to that of air that, despite the crystal’s great density, the unaccustomed eye hardly perceives it. But to anyone who seeks it with sincere desire and true need, it reveals itself by its sudden sparkle, like that of dewdrops. The peradam is the only substance, the only material object whose value is recognized by the guides of Mount Analogue. Therefore, it is the standard of all currency, as gold is for us.

It seems (Mount Analog) that it is a very good analogy for Evolution.

cool bananas ... greg

[leskey]

Very good Mel ..... And it did stir a remembrance in me ... and ...

I found the story of Mount Analog very interesting. especially as this Mountain can only be perceived by realising that one has travelled further in traversing it than one would by travelling in a straight line. And its rock, Peradam, has very unusual qualities

• "One finds here, very rarely in the low lying areas, more frequently as one goes farther up, a clear and extremely hard stone that is spherical and varies in size—a kind of crystal, but a curved crystal, something extraordinary and unknown on the rest of the planet. Among the French of Port-des-Singes, it is called peradam. Ivan Lapse remains puzzled by the formation and root meaning of this word. It may mean, according to him, “harder than diamond,” and it is; or “father of the diamond,” and they say that the diamond is in fact the product of the degeneration of the peradam by a sort of quartering of the circle or, more precisely, cubing of the sphere.
• Or again, the word may mean “Adam’s stone,” having some secret and profound connection to the original nature of man. The clarity of this stone is so great and its index of refraction so close to that of air that, despite the crystal’s great density, the unaccustomed eye hardly perceives it. But to anyone who seeks it with sincere desire and true need, it reveals itself by its sudden sparkle, like that of dewdrops. The peradam is the only substance, the only material object whose value is recognized by the guides of Mount Analogue. Therefore, it is the standard of all currency, as gold is for us.

It seems (Mount Analog) that it is a very good analogy for Evolution.

cool bananas ... greg

But, IMO, this is the best aspect (pardon the pun) of the story:

Alpinism is the art of climbing mountains by confronting the greatest dangers with the greatest prudence. Art is used here to mean the accomplishment of knowledge in action. You cannot always stay on the summits. You have to come down again... So what’s the point? Only this: what is above knows what is below, what is below does not know what is above. While climbing, take note of all the difficulties along your path. During the descent, you will no longer see them, but you will know that they are there if you have observed carefully. There is an art to finding your way in the lower regions by the memory of what you have seen when you were higher up. When you can no longer see, you can at least still know. . .

[Graybeard]

There is an art to finding your way in the lower regions by the memory of what you have seen when you were higher up. When you can no longer see, you can at least still know. . .

Or you can know because others can tell you what is like at the top .... rotflmao


cool bananas ... greg

[racecar]

what d'ya know...that is funny. hehehe