[Guille]

Baud,

Don't you think you are limitting our math too much to the present achievements? I don't believe mysel fthat we can explain consciousness with math, but is there no possible math that can explain some things? Mandelbrot is what we have now, but what could be done by math si much more than what has been done by math. I believe math will be able to predict, for example, how much time a person will use to dedicate it to another person according to the amount-proportions of certain substances in the mind. That is interesting, as it woudl connect the two main areas of study of the mind: biological (of the substances and reactions..) and psicological (of the behaviour and feelings-ideas). But to explain the mind we need much more: philosophy, anthropology, sociology, history, geography, chemistry, physics... In fact, this is what I believe: the mind is the secret of the universe, the ultimaste thing to understand, for it is what understands at all, and this is the reason why now all the sciences, and even any kind of thinking process, are moving towards the mind.

[harmonygirl]

Guille, wait a moment for me to get my diary, I actually agree with you!

[Mr. Nobody]

consciousness is the reason for the existence of reality.

A liter of water does not exist until you measure it?

IMHO, these statements consist equally false reasonings. Measurement does not change reality, it only quanitifies it. The water is still there, you just don't know how much it is. Reality exists independantly from you and without consciousness, otherwise you have to assume that when you close your eyes, ears and are not being touched that reality seized to exist. A world before us DID exist and WILL exist again.
I do understand your thinking however and would like you to consider a similar question: Does mathematic have a reality outside our brain? Is it only a tool to describe things, or would it exist even without thinking about it. Is there math in nothingness? Is math the written letters in spoken poetry, written reality, versus spoken reality, measurement vers existence maddening, isn't it?

[Guille]

HG,

Sometimes, small coincidences can become absolute differences. Agreeing on a few ideas I gave (that mind is the secret for TOE, that we need all science and philosophy, that math can't explain all but helps...) means one more allianz towards the TOE. Mkikpatrik too agrees the mind is all, and we are growing.

Mr.Somebody-it-must-be,

The mind is not only measurement, is not only quantification. That is only a basic thing of the subconsciousness. We have much more from the mind: we have consciousness, and that means qualification. And qualities and quantities are all of what existence is.

[Mr. Nobody]

As the observer we give name to things. We measure and we categorize, but we DO NOT create reality. Reality exists with or without the observer, with or without the you, with or without your input, with or without your consciousness with or without your presence. Reality does not need to be named to gain existence, it is existence with everything possible contained within.
The Quantum Uncertainty does not mean that we create and establish behaviour or that an act of consious observation singles out one outcome over others or that consciousness colapses a graph of undetermined possibilities into one specificially chosen outcome. It only means that it cuts off interaction with other outcomes. Tangible reality is generated via interaction of the most likely and best suited, stable packet of information with other similar systems to gernerate a description for the underlying energy for this, our reality, irregardless of observation. Uncertainty prevails in extremely isolated systems and illustrates the link to the all permeating energy that drives reality.....all IMHO of course.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody

As the observer we give name to things. We measure and we categorize, but we DO NOT create reality. Reality exists with or without the observer, with or without the you, with or without your input, with or without your consciousness with or without your presence. Reality does not need to be named to gain existence, it is existence with everything possible contained within.
The Quantum Uncertainty does not mean that we create and establish behaviour or that an act of consious observation singles out one outcome over others or that consciousness colapses a graph of undetermined possibilities into one specificially chosen outcome. It only means that it cuts off interaction with other outcomes. Tangible reality is generated via interaction of the most likely and best suited, stable packet of information with other similar systems to gernerate a description for the underlying energy for this, our reality, irregardless of observation. Uncertainty prevails in extremely isolated systems and illustrates the link to the all permeating energy that drives reality.....all IMHO of course.

I agree. The world is independent of my mind, perception, conception, communication, expression... It exists with or without me. Of cours, maybe not from my point of view, but still it exists. The only problem with this is that we cannot tell what exists and what doesn't, for in this case, if something can exist without our percetion-conception-expression of it, then it is impossible to differentiate between things that exist which we haven't percieved-concepted-expressed to those which don't exist. It is a horrible circle going round and round, this metaphysical philosophies...

[harmonygirl]

Guile and Mr. Nobody, we certainly create our reality. If (as you both seem to postulate) objective reality only exists through our apprehension, how do you know it exists? Is this just faith on your part? (kind of like religion, isn't it?). My reality is different from yours (case in point). We each believe our reality is the REAL one, (or correct one, or superiour one, or whatever). Who is right? In my view, we are all correct, because reality includes us and our perceptions. Any pretence that reality doesn't include subjective perception is dangerous because it ignores those interpretations, or regards them as "objective", which is wholly illusory.

[Mr. Nobody]

Lady Harmony:
I would like to distinguish between a reality which is based on the availabilty of information and a reality which is based on the INTERPRETATION or ASSIGNMENT of MEANING for said information.
The first one we all should be able to agree on
The second one is subjective.

Having made this important distinction, I am aware of the fact that interpretation of previous measurements can skew or prejustice future measurements. To minimize that is to recognize our discussion, the TOE, as science versus religion.

Back to the original post: Did consciousness create reality or did reality create consciousness? This is an interesting question which has split the science community for many years. It basically is another representation of the platonistic versus the formalistic weltanschaung. I can truly say that over the years I have been in both camps and can see both views, perhaps true reality will turn out to be a mixture of the two phylosophies, as so often in nature.
What I object to however, is the reliance on self awareness or consciousness for existence. With that we deny the importance of billions of years of evolution and proclaim ourself the "I" state at present as the apex of the cosmos. Similar egocentric views have been proven wrong many times before; Which leaves me in an obvious quandry, to be or not to be.......

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by <<<GUILLE>>>

HG,

Sometimes, small coincidences can become absolute differences. Agreeing on a few ideas I gave (that mind is the secret for TOE, that we need all science and philosophy, that math can't explain all but helps...) means one more allianz towards the TOE. Mkikpatrik too agrees the mind is all, and we are growing.

Mr.Somebody-it-must-be,

The mind is not only measurement, is not only quantification. That is only a basic thing of the subconsciousness. We have much more from the mind: we have consciousness, and that means qualification. And qualities and quantities are all of what existence is.

Guille,we are indeed growing,we need to grow a lot more though,I feel,to get this truly of the ground,thanks again for your valued input.
kind regards michael.

[harmonygirl]

Thanks for nominating me to the peerage! Mr. Nobody, the fact that we all agree on something does not make it real. Once upon a time everyone agreed that the sun went around the earth. Maybe we will have to disagree that reality is subjective because of unavoidable interpretation. This is an example of consciousness creating reality...