[Nebulous Neura]

Like the keeper of this forum, my background is working with computers and I read about physics, neuroscience, cosmology, complex adaptive systems, chaos theory, and other related books in my spare time. As many of you, I am here because I am curious and have an unquenchable thirst for knowledge. I do not feel that my thoughts and inquiries are null simply because I do not hold a Ph.D. I hope that most of you agree.

Now to the purpose of this post in this forum... As I continue to read about recent discoveries in neurophysiology, I am even more intrigued about the physics of consciousness. I would like to discuss ideas and theories about the physical characteristics exhibited in a conscious mind and how resulting behaviours can possibly be emulated within non-organic structures.

One book that I found particularly interesting is "Going Inside - A tour round a single moment of consciousness" by John McCrone. If anyone else here has read that book, I would like to compare notes. I believe consciousness CAN be explained mathematically and would enjoy intellectual conversation with others that share an interest in pursuit of this elusive formula. Binary based silicon processors may or may not be an acceptable platform for consciousness. In the realm of mathematics, one does not have to implement the solution, but merely prove that an implementation is possible. The human brain and nervous system is proof that one implementation of consciousness is possible, but is it the only configuration of matter that can be self-aware? There must be others, and if there are, then it should be possible to prove mathematically.

[Marketa]

I agree that there can be other conscious "things" (another great book about this is Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas Hofstadter) but I don't think we'll ever have a mathematical proof. How do you want to prove e.g. (the simplest case) YOURSELF mathematically? It's impossible, because mathematics is only a system made by man which power is in connecting and finding relations between various things but which can't prove, I mean REALLY prove, anything - it can't even prove itself.

[force5]

I also worked with computers some years ago, mainly designing large scale applications.

One of the first things I determined when drawing a comparison between humans and computers was the method of programming. We all understand how computers work where we have a clear separation of code versus data. In order to modify a programs function, you have to change or modify the code.

With organic things, including us, the code is undergoing constant modification for better or worse. Since we are constantly evolving every second of every day, our programs (brains) are never outdated, but may contain a lot of bugs that are not always corrected before implementation.

John A.

[yogi]

Originally Posted by force5 I also worked with computers some years ago, mainly designing large scale applications. One of the first things I determined when drawing a comparison between humans and computers was the method of programming. We all understand how computers work where we have a clear separation of code versus data. In order to modify a programs function, you have to change or modify the code. With organic things, including us, the code is undergoing constant modification for better or worse. Since we are constantly evolving every second of every day, our programs (brains) are never outdated, but may contain a lot of bugs that are not always corrected before implementation. John A.

Hi John,
I shall make some comments on your post. If you consider cosmos as a programmed system, then who programmed it? What is the programming language? What is the operating system? What is the goal of evolution?

And now the answer - a good book about the subject is - MAYA A World of Virtual Reality- I would like to read this but haven't. In short here is a short description about the book from their site. Here is the link:
http://www.simulatedworlds.com/main.html :-

This groundbreaking book shows how conscious beings could interact with a physically realistic virtual world. It shows how both paranormal phenomena and religious experiences can be reconciled in a natural way with the laws of physics, and it sheds light on paradoxes of time, on life beyond the body, and on cosmic and terrestrial evolution. In a sweeping synthesis, the ideas and data of modern science are used to illuminate the ancient theme of consciousness in a world of illusion.

yogi

[force5]

Hi Yogi,

I just reviewed my post. Now I'm trying to figure out where I made a reference to cosmos vs. computer? If I did, I'm afraid I don't see it. Well anyway, I'll try to find a good analogy.

Question:
If you consider cosmos as a programmed system, then who programmed it?
Answer:
I do not think in terms of "who". But I do think in terms of "pre-determined" events.

Question:
What is the programing language?
Answer:
Fundamental laws of nature.

Question:
What is the operating system?
Answer:
Fundamental laws of nature.

Question:
What is the goal of evolution?
Answer:
To obey the fundamental laws of nature.

Sorry if this appears to be an over simplification. But, I don't really wish to spend alot of time thinking about this type of comparison.

Regards...........John A.

[Eldar]

The bottom line of what conscious is, is just your will. You the conscious observer, you are an observer with the ablitiy to have an opinion about what you observe. You collapse the wave.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by force5 Question: what is the goal of evolution? Answer: To obey the fundamental laws of nature. John A.

To obey the laws of nature isn't the goal of evolution, it is the limitation and obligation of evolution. The goal of evolution is to survive.

Originally Posted by treed Tina- It is easy to argue with anything when you are talking about the unknown.

Everything is the unknown. Nobody can demostrate that the above statement is wrong because it is over our capacities.

Originally Posted by treed Tina- What is sleep……..?

Sleep is the rest of our mind and body (including consciousness).

[JAK]

Originally Posted by <<>> The goal of evolution is to survive.

True. But survival falls within a range of bodily states. The quality of survival varies within these states. Thus, the goal of evolution is to survive at optimum states. Technically, this is striving to achieve the highest state of homeostasis (Walter Cannon, 1920s).

Originally Posted by <<>> Sleep is the rest of our mind and body (including consciousness)

Actually, "sleep" appears to be our closest state to homeostasis which is why it is refreshing. Meanwhile, consciousness is somewhat stressful (related to beta-CCM activation) which is why we eventually get tired and sleepy. (Prolonged wakefulness is fatal in rats - J. Allen Hobson, 1980s-1990s.)

Essentially, "consciousness" is a defense mechanism evolved by an organism to exploit external environmental opportunities while avoiding external environmental hazards. This is why all of its facets (like our 5 primary senses) seem geared to the collecting of and acting upon external data.

[Guille]

JAK, thanks for the biological information. Can you explain to me what that "homeostasis" is all about? Is it to do with consciousness?

[JAK]

Originally Posted by <<>> JAK, thanks for the biological information. Can you explain me what that "homeostasis" is all about? Is it to do with consciousness?

Yes, it is the key to consciousness. Consciousness is clearly a brain state, and all brain states appear to be controlled by the hypothalamus (deep within the brain, and high on the brain stem). The hypothalamus is a "feedback system" which works to keep its system indicators within specific ranges. As these are disturbed, the hypothalamus activates other brain systems which enact behaviors designed to bring the indicators back into ideal range. These are the hallmarks of a "control system" (see William T. Powers' "Perceptual Control Theory"). Walter Cannon's description of homeostasis falls right in line with it:

"The coordinated physiological processes which maintain most of the steady states in the organism are so complex and so peculiar to living beings ... that I have suggested a special designation for these states, homeostasis. The word does not imply something set and immobile, stagnation. It means a condition - a condition which may vary, but which is relatively constant." - Cannon, Walter B. The Wisdom of the Body. NEW YORK: W. W. Norton & Company, 1967. ISBN 0-673-38023-8 ... "The main function of the hypothalamus is homeostasis, or maintaining the body's status quo. ... Ultimately, the hypothalamus can control every endocrine gland in the body, and alter blood pressure (through vasopressin and vasoconstriction), body temperature, metabolism (through TSH), and adrenaline levels (through ACTH)." -Molavi, Diana Weedman et al. Neuroscience Tutorial: Hypothalamus and Autonomic Nervous System. ST. LOUIS: Washington Univ. School of Medicine, 1997. http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/hypoANS.html

To follow the theoretical line of thinking, consciousness evolved to provide behaviors to support the primary function of the hypothalamus. For example, if you get chilled (hypothalamus), you seek warmth. If you are hungry or thirsty (hypothalamus), you seek food or water. If you feel romantic (hypothalamus), you seek an attractive mate. If you have trouble sleeping (hypothalamus), you ask me (or Gregg Henriques) about this theoretical work, and as we get enraptured in the details, any audience will quickly doze off. (My wife is convinced that this theory is a cure for insomnia. "I'm having trouble sleeping, dear, Talk to me again about your theory.")

All brain/body states result in two fundamental behaviors: seek and avoid (Robert Plutchik and others). "Consciousness" is a subset of brain behaviors which also breaks into the two subsets (seek/avoid). The "seek" and "avoid" are designed to get the hypothalamus indicators back with in the ideal range - homeostasis. The hypothalamus is the central point of control - control to measure homeostasis and control to counteract disturbances to it.