[mkirkpatrick]

Noumena, the intellectual conception of a thing as it is in itself,not as it is known through perception.What are the laws of logic?They are the laws of our receptivity of the three dimensional worlds, or the laws of our three dimensional receptivity of the world. But in order to understand that which is at present beyond our comprehension, we must throw of the chains of our three dimensional logic. We must embrace the illogical, and try to understand that without this, no reality can be forthcoming! To penetrate into the pulse of the noumena one must see everything in a new light, in the world of the noumena, duality of our world cannot exist, there being is not opposed to non-being. Life is not opposed to death, on the contrary, the one includes the other within itself. The unity and multiplicity of the I, the I and the not I, motion and immobility, union and separateness, good and evil,truth and falsehood,all these divisions are impossible there. Everything subjective is objective, and everything objective is subjective. That world is the world of the unity of opposites. No-sense is as in-sense in this all embracing illogical noumena?

kind regards michael.

[Mohan.C]

I agree. To reach the limitless we must be first able to cross the limits.

[mkirkpatrick]

In the world of causes,the noumena, effects must exist and not happen-exist before and after their manifestation, and be located in one section,as it were. Effects must exist simultaneously with causes. That which we name the law of causality cannot exist there,because time is a nessessary condition for it. There cannot be anything which is measured by years,days,hours, there Cannot be before, now, or after. Moments of different epochs divided by great intervals of time,exist simultaneously,and may even touch one another. All the possibilities of a given moment,even those opposite to one another, and all their results up to infinity,must be actualized simultaneously with a given moment, but the length of a moment can be different on different planes. The sensation of the reality of that world must I feel be accompanied by the sensation of the unreality of this one.At the sametime the difference between real ans unreal cannot exist there, just as the difference between subjective and objective cannot exist.There would appear to be no-sense to that which is truly Noumena??

kind regards michael.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Michael, the problem with going too far in the direction of these posts is in destroying the very core of definition, itself. This is the old ontic problem of trying to over-define the TAO___as Laotzu said, "It can't be done." I believe the direction should be more critical definition, not more muted... I think we should concentrate on critical self-definition to understand the ontic...

regards

[mkirkpatrick]

You have made a very valid point there Lloyd,how can we work together to find a way around this apparent difficulity.

kind regards michael.

[harmonygirl]

This thread represents one of the fundamental (and I believe too often overlooked) flaws in our conceptions: by definition, you necessarily exclude (if you have thing, you must have 'non-thing' to make the term 'thing' meaninful). The concept of noumena is new for me, but how can we know what it is, as we are only aware through perception? If logic is the path, I would like to take the one less travelled, becuse the strict rules of logic tend to lead away from truth, rather than toward it.

[mkirkpatrick]

Thank you Harmony for your reply.
How indeed can we know of the noumena? In truth we cannot, but that should not stop us from trying to understand its unsung presence? Our present level of understanding, the almost impossibly limitation of our language to try and express the inexpressible. In the noumena there is thing, in the phenomena there is thing! The relative and collected illusion we all are part of is that we imagine,(quite wrongly) that there is plurity,and that there is more than one thing? We see many, and our fooled by this illusion, but by trying to accept and understand the noumena, we open up the doorway that leads to the singular, and close the doorway to the illusion of many, that has confused man for centuries.

kind regards michael.

[Guille]

I don't understand why most epistemological theories accept that we percieve subjectivelly. We don't. We percieve, experience, objectivelly. How could THAT be subjective? I mean, when we think about things, then we are subjectives, for we are subjects, as our minds make us subjects (that is why we are not objects). When we compare an experience to previous experiences of the same thing, or experiences of other things, then we are subjective. But the actual act of perception, of experience, is objective. We may not be absolute (I may be seeing only one side of a table) but at least we are objective (I'm seeing a table in itself). Therefore, instead of saying that the noumena is product of the mind, is an ideal that doesn't exist, we should say that the phenomena is what doesn't exist, what is only a product of the mind (only once it is in the mind, it is noumenal). I don't know to what theories this thought can lead, but I'm sure it leads to somewhere new.

[mkirkpatrick]

Guille amigo,what an excellent post you have just made,thank you,you said if I may
quote you "that phenomena is what does not exist,what is only a product of the mind,
(only once it is in the mind,it is noumenal"and,what theories this thought could lead to!
Maybe something new!End quote.

Phenomena as it "shows" itself in universal expression is indeed an illusion,and does not
Really exist,it "seems" to exist in a relative sense,but not in an absolute sense,we are
mislead into a mirage of appearances that are all illusary and un-real.

Where this could lead us,and what "new" theories this will give birth to,is anybodies
guess,although I would suggest that as is happening now in some areas of physics,there
will be an understanding that intelligent consciousness lies at the back of all universal
occurances,either real or imaginary?

regards michael.