[Fluent Piffle]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick

Prehaps I thought that if I do it first,it will rob you of that pleasure later?



regards michael.

Michael, I have no interest in being the kind of person you seem to be claiming I am. You did it to yourself, remember?

It is not the person (And also remember that according to your own 'world view' you do not even exist!) - but the action of contradiction, which is opposed to the Reality of the total experience, Now...Truth of Existence. (Or, ROTTEN TOE, for short... ).

If there is any 'fooling' to be done, we would all do well to remember that it is only an action we can perform upon ourselves! Even if you think you can 'convince' someone else of anything, it is actually their own agreement to let themselves be fooled, which is the action they perform upon themselves... Thus, an internal contradiction occurs, and yet outwardly we see no 'problem' with this, as long as our surroundings (society) also find it 'acceptable'.



pif.

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick

Stay with us on this thread mate,you are going through a process of rebirth here!I welcome you home son?

Perhaps I am Michael, perhaps I am.

I want to continue here with the example of the Salt Water Croc, because I believe that far from the Noumena being the precursor and overlord, while phenomena is its serf, the reverse is in fact true

Originally Posted by Graybeard

Click on the liddle gray arrow to read about the Crocodile

As I said in the above post, the croc can react effectively well within the 15 frames per second of vision we are capable of processing. In plain english, a torpid, seemingly comatose salt water croc can launch itself so quickly that as you are disappearing into its slavering halitosis jaws your last perception is that it is still sitting torpidly on the bank.

It has reacted at a faster rate than you can process visual frames. It is literally true to say that the victim never knew what hit him.

The important question is: What has happened here ?

The answer is: Physical events have occurred for which mental processes have lagged. First the physical (phenomena) followed by the mental process (noumena) sometime later. In the case of being eaten by a croc, way, way too much later.

There is a word called epiphenomenon, and its meaning is: a secondary phenomenon that occurs alongside a primary phenomenon.

From the Wiki

Originally Posted by Wiki

Epiphenomenalism is a view according to which some or all mental states are mere epiphenomena (side-effects or by-products) of physical states of the world. Thus, epiphenomenalism denies that the mind (as in its states, not its processing) has any causal influence on the body or any other part of the physical world: while mental states are caused by physical states, mental states do not have any causal influence on physical states.

Is this a good description of a croc attack ? Yes it is. Also Michael, please note the relationship between the spelling of epiphenomena and phenomena. Also please note that epiphenomena is an alternative for noumena .... Hmmmm ... Aaaahumm do I hear you say ??

It seems to me Michael that this here thread is really an argument about or between perceptual consciousness (my view) as opposed to reflective consciousness (your view)

Are you with me so far you bloody Pom ?? All, ALL mental states (as per quote) can be described as side effects or by products of physical states!!!

OK

Originally Posted by An excerpt from Animal Minds, Beyond Cognition to Consciousness by Donald R. Griffin

Many behavioral scientists such as Shettleworth (1998) and philosophers such as Lloyd (1989, 186) believe that it is likely that animals may sometimes experience perceptual consciousness but that reflective consciousness is a unique human attribute

The latter would be much more difficult to detect in animals, if it does occur. People can tell when they are thinking about their own thoughts, but it has generally seemed impossible for animals to do so, although animal communication may sometimes serve the same basic function. The very difficulty of detecting whether animals experience reflective consciousness should make us cautious about concluding that it is impossible.

Most of the suggestive evidence that will be discussed in this book points toward perceptual rather than reflective consciousness. Those swayed by a visceral feeling that some important level of consciousness must be restricted to our species may cling to reflective consciousness as a bastion still defended by many against the increasing evidence that other animals share to a limited extent many of our mental abilities.

If we are to grant animals, at least mammals, the same mental abilities as ourselves, to a lesser extent if you wish, how is it they show no form of noumena (reflective) but a degree of remembered (perceptual) epiphenomena? Have you seen with what caution a wildebeest approaches a water hole ? Noumena or Epiphenomena ?

Your turn old friend .... and don't dispose of all my hard work in 2 lines ... I've got an exam to sit and its my aim to beat the illusionists ... LOL

How fast is fast ?

cool bananas ... greg ...

(PS: Don't worry overmuch ... I'll speak with Robert to give you a pass ... rotflmao)

Hey michael ... Do you remember (I just did) that we started off our friendship on this forum all those years ago talking about being eaten by crocs ??

[mkirkpatrick]

Yes I remember old mate,I have seen salt water crocs both in India,and in Costa-Rica,no
way would i like to swim with these fellows,they are very old predators indeed,and in fact have hardly changed in millions of years,bit like your tee-shirt mate!

When we discuss stuff like consciousness on this here forum,we are actually talking "about" something,rather than experiencing it,so it is no small wonder that confusion
arises around how and what we see and understand!


Noumena is that which provides the"opportunity" for us to experience Objectivity and
learn how to balance that with subjectivity,for us to be able to RE-flect and understand
that phenomena is the "window" that provides this opportunity.

There mate more than two lines--just for you dear.


regards michael.

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Fluent Piffle

Michael, I have no interest in being the kind of person you seem to be claiming I am. You did it to yourself, remember?

It is not the person (And also remember that according to your own 'world view' you do not even exist!) - but the action of contradiction, which is opposed to the Reality of the total experience, Now...Truth of Existence. (Or, ROTTEN TOE, for short... ).

If there is any 'fooling' to be done, we would all do well to remember that it is only an action we can perform upon ourselves! Even if you think you can 'convince' someone else of anything, it is actually their own agreement to let themselves be fooled, which is the action they perform upon themselves... Thus, an internal contradiction occurs, and yet outwardly we see no 'problem' with this, as long as our surroundings (society) also find it 'acceptable'.



pif.

No you are right pif,absolutely we have no reality and do not exist,relatively though we
"appear to do so!

I do remember pif,we each have to agree within ourselves.

regards michael.

[Fluent Piffle]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick

No you are right pif,absolutely we have no reality and do not exist,relatively though we
"appear to do so!

I do remember pif,we each have to agree within ourselves.

regards michael.

"No permanence is ours; we are a wave
That flows to fit whatever form it finds:
Through day or night, cathederal or the cave
We pass forever, craving form that binds." - Herman Hesse


(not) pif.

[Graybeard]

We re-enact with reverent attention
The universal chord, the masters' harmony,
Evoking in unsullied communion
Minds and times of highest sanctity.

We draw upon the iconography
Whose mystery is able to contain
The boundlessness, the storm of all existence,
Give chaos form, and hold our lives in rein.

The pattern sings like crystal constellations,
And when we tell our beads, we serve the whole,
And cannot be dislodged or misdirected,
Held in the orbit of the Cosmic Soul.

Hermann Hesse

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Graybeard

We re-enact with reverent attention

The universal chord, the masters' harmony,

Evoking in unsullied communion

Minds and times of highest sanctity.

We draw upon the iconography

Whose mystery is able to contain

The boundlessness, the storm of all existence,

Give chaos form, and hold our lives in rein.

The pattern sings like crystal constellations,

And when we tell our beads, we serve the whole,

And cannot be dislodged or misdirected,

Held in the orbit of the Cosmic Soul.

Hermann Hesse

Cheers mate a verse hatched within phenomena,but originated within noumena itself!

regards michael.

[Graybeard]

Yea .... Thats my peace offering to get you and Pif back on track for this here phenomenal debate ... LOL

cool bananas ... greg

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Graybeard

Yea .... Thats my peace offering to get you and Pif back on track for this here phenomenal debate ... LOL

cool bananas ... greg

May your God go with you my son,if I had a rock I'd throw it at you?Peace brother.




regards michael

[Fluent Piffle]

Greg, I kind of guessed you might be a 'fan'!


My intentions, however, are hopefully never less than peaceful.

Neither am I 'opposed' to what may be termed, 'True Spirituality'. For me, this represents our personal connection to that which Truly exists. Thus I see no need nor relevance in a 'middle-man' scenario.

From what I can gather from your posts, Michael, you are a caring individual, and that can only be applauded, but that does not mean that your assumption of 'All is consciousness' is correct! I understand the frustration of today's climate, but possibly we may remember that we are products of our past, and the things that have made 'today's climate' what it is, have been blind to say the least, otherwise, surely, we would have stopped poisoning ourselves a long time ago?

We are in a much better position to do something about our past mistakes now. We have additional knowledge, and hard fought-for 'freedom' (of a 'fashion'). I think it would be a shame to waste these rare opportunities in re-creating the same mistakes that 'yesterday' has given us. Whether we fight on the battle-field, in the 'forums', or in our own minds, it is still a continuation of the act of 'fighting', and thus the very 'thing' we show ourselves (as the next generation) how to keep doing. We have been unconsciously doing this to ourselves for such a long time now, it has become an addiction with us, but ultimately, like all addictions, it is of course self-destructive.

Yes, we do it to ourselves. And this starts within. It starts within because we do not want to believe it is true. It is always 'someone else' that has a 'problem', and we (being nice, caring individuals) just want to help 'others' to see whichever 'light' we can see, so how can this ever be 'wrong'?

I know, you are saying, "Well, that's just what YOU are doing now, matey!" - And you are correct! I do it, because we ALL do it!

But what does that say about US, us 'Humans', I mean?

Is it not that we WANT to do some 'good', but somewhere along the way it all goes a bit strange, and we end up 'fighting' again!?

Well, this is what I think has been happening over and over again in our more recent histories. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." - and all that...

So surely, at some point, we must at least try and dig just another layer deeper than before, to try and get to bottom of OUR problem?


It may surprise many here to know that I have actually had some kind of - what many would call - 'visions'! Don't laugh! (Or go the other extreme and try to convince me that 'god did it'!) - But at around 4-5- years old I was sitting by a stream (South of UK, around 1969-70) when I had an intense feeling of incredible 'smallness' followed by incredible 'hugeness' (sorry, these are the only 'terms' I have come to associate the feelings with). This made me quite nauseous. Over the next, possibly 10, years, these feelings would re-occur maybe 6-7 times, quite randomly. They stopped, or more like 'tailed off', at age c.16, but more recently, in the last 5-6 years or so, I have been 'plagued' with a recurring phrase, in much the same manner as the previous 'feelings'. The phrase was 'inverse Universe', and it has led me into areas of thought that had not crossed my mind previously. I associate the newer phrase with the earlier 'feeling', and believe they are the same thing, just different 'forms'.

I took a psychological approach, but still do not know why! - I have never been indoctrinated into any form of 'faith-based' thinking, but neither have I been particularly 'academic'; more an 'artistic' type. However, in taking this approach, I have come to realise a lot more than I had bargained for! About myself, that is, and how I have come to think in the ways that I do, tracing older family traits, and seeing how they have been absorbed by myself, unconsciously, and are still in fact causing me the greatest of my particular 'problems', which I have come to understand as not so 'great' as many poor unfortunates have to cope with! This has also led me to understand that the original 'feelings' may have been self-induced also!

What I needed to do most, was to find out why I was repeating the phrase 'Inverse Universe' to myself, and why it was 'slipping past' my unconscious, into my everyday thinking. Had it been 'triggered' by something exterior to myself, and if so, how did it correlate with my previous 'feelings of extremity', which I am still pretty sure are the same thing? Do other people have these 'feelings' or repetitions of phrases? And if so, have they interpreted them as 'voices from God', in the past?

So, you may now see where the term 'True Spirituality' has some considerable meaning, for me, and that I do not really need a 'middle man', when I have the 'real thing' to observe for myself. With this in mind, I have taken it upon myself to investigate 'That which Truly exists', so that I may know better what it IS that I am connected to! I think everyone has this inner understanding to what they truly are and how they exist, but even after all this, I am less convinced that an 'exterior' 'omni-potency' has been 'supplying' me! I can explain the whole thing, more or less, with a psychological understanding, especially combined with a greater understanding of other scientific achievements of recent discovery.


Of course, you may choose to either believe any of this, or not, but this is my explanation for my current way of thinking on the matter, and possibly it may be taken into account the amount of time and effort I have taken to re-count the 'story', and that someone who goes to such lengths is not here 'just to annoy the moderators'!




pif.