[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by MJA Dear Greg, Thanks for you interest in me and my profile, I'll try to answer your query. I am simply the true searcher who asked the question: is nature measurable? I am certain I have found the truth of that question, the truth of nature, and the truth of measure.

Dear MJA. perhaps I got out of bed on the wrong side this morning, I apologise for my rather harsh post.

Originally Posted by MJA You state: "Obviously colour is not self-evident," and " it needs to be experienced which can only be done by phenomena."

You said that truth is self evident. In the context of the post, colour can be determined by Phenomena, that is, by each person visibly seeing it. Therefore, from our Noumena alone we cannot visualise it if we have never seen it before.

Originally Posted by MJA If oneself does not experience the evidence or phenomena of color, does color not exist? If it does exist, then is your statement still correct?

It is an absolute truth that colour does not exist. It is simply reflected electromagnetic waves of radiation that hit our body at the speed of light. Strong infra-red will cause sun burn, other frequencies will cause other destruction.

We have evolved to handle that amount we receive in general.

Our eyes are dumb photo-electric cells, with no perception, no depth distinguishing ability, no more than any camera.

The perception, the depth, the colours, the interpretation is ALL processed inside our brain. The information is not contained in the light our eyes receive. That data is processed along with the vast data bank of everything we have seen previously and compared assimilated and passed to the decision making part of our brain. The Phenoma combines with the Noumena. At least thats how I see it if you will excuse the pun

We live in a Universe that is pitch black, like any worm in the ground.

As what we interpret as colour are radio waves picked up by the antenna of our eyes you can readily appreciate that our Noumena can never receive such signals, only our eyes can receive the Phenomena, the radio waves.

We may all interpret this differently, as you point out, but we all agree that we, those who can see, are seeing the same reflection, or radio waves.

Blind people from birth can only experience colour non-visually, that is, audibly explained by others. They have only their noumena to interpret it, they will never have the Phenomena of experiencing it.

Originally Posted by MJA Without falacy, arguement or debate, and only a question to help me understand your view of reality or truth, my revised question is in your own words: If it does not exist for the lack of experience of oneself, what about nature, what about everyone else?

The Cosmos is still a violent, physical place, it only is visible in colour to those of us species on earth who have advanced passed 64 gray scale. Lots of species have not.

SuperNovas do not occur in colour, nor do fireworks. They only give off radio waves. The colour is 'added' inside our brain. As I have said, the whole Universe is pitch black, full of radiation, unseen, unless you have evolved sensors to detect the frequencies that you rely on for decision making in order to survive.

Originally Posted by MJA ps: I don't think real or true alpha male men call others names, or play games when it come to the search for truth, do you Greg?

I apoligise for the above remark ..

I hope this has helped to atone for my earlier post, as well as provided some insight into how I 'see' the cosmos ..

cool bananas MJA ... greg

[austintorn@aol.com]

Noumena
(That which is turned into phenomena by the brain)

Graybeard,

I like your explanations—you are a phenom!


MJA,

There are noumena that we humans can’t perceive, such as from the spectrum of the ultraviolet or infrared. Yet, they exist without our senses sensing them and can be measured by instruments, whose recordings we can see. There are probably many noumena that we haven’t discovered and some that we never will—those many other things that exist “between heaven and earth”.

Of course, colors aren’t out there at all they way they appear to our minds (after brain analysis) as phenomenal red, blue, and yellow, but are out there in their noumenal form of waves of different frequencies or interference patterns or whatever—it matters only to scientific research.

Three types of proteins in our retinal cones rotate according to the amount of corresponding primary color waves received, and so the colors are mixed by the brain into the phenomenal colors that we can differentiate as qualia or pre-qualia in our minds.

(These pre-qualia on our minds, if that step is there, could be urther “noumena” of mind waves that consciousness finally paints as colors.)

The selection of these three colors’ frequencies by the retinal cone’s proteins is arbitrary, and any other workable choice would have sufficed to evolve us further.

A cat only sees in shades of gray, but again, the entire spectrum is out there.

A sound or a color in a night dream is an example of a phenomenon without the accompanying noumenon of a sound wave, while a tree falling in a forest with no sound wave receivers around (ears connected to a brain), makes no sound—a noumenon without a subsequent phenomenon. In our waking reality, there is both the noumenon and the phenomenon—of a sound wave leading to a sound.

There is no appearance without anything behind it that leads to the appearance, but many wish this not to be so. Even if we are in a night dream right now, the brain still broadcasts the show.

Some say that all reality is a dream whose parts are as completely manipulatable in cause and effect, and stability over time, as if they were real, even every atom’s influence being somehow micromanaged, but then, this, too, would be real, for a difference that makes no difference is no difference—and is simply just a different kind of noumena broadcasting station, say a 3D hologram laser-lit from a 2D surface. Again, it doesn’t matter but for curiosity of TOE researchers

It’s good for us that the brain puts a better face on, say, wave frequencies, to make color appear phenomenally—it must have been an advantage found through evolution and natural selection.

I suppose that it could have also worked out that a species could have evolved that saw no color phenomena but saw some kind of “density of waves” phenomena that produced a similar sorting out of wave frequencies as our colors do, and perhaps there is such a species of animal.

Some even go further and say that a long DVD is playing somewhere (where?) that not only has optional endings, but optional everything at every point. Still real as real and just a method of nature.

Some say that the physical brain of all people together maintain reality as a dream image that is just as workable as if it were real. Still really real in effect—just a different kind of noumena presentation. (Why isn’t the physical brain just and illusion, too)

Some say that the noumenal dispositions are experiential in nature. Still works as real—the method doesn’t matter.

Some say that all the intricate mechanisms of nature and the brain are just for show, as in a dream, but again, they do operate exactly as if they were real, so this is an odd approach.

Some say the mind and body are complete illusions but offer no means by which all works just as if it were real.

Some say that all is equal or that all is one, since this was a possible though improbable initial state before materialization—and give this as a rather meaningless answer to every question and post. Stating something over and over doesn’t make it so, nor do category mistakes of mixing things like “equal rights” with the other meaning of “equal”. (I have no hard feelings, just saying how it goes over.)

Well, as for all is one or equal in the TOE sense, it could have been that the different fundamental particles and forces were always around, and if they weren’t, then it is immaterial in both senses of the word, for we operate here, not “there”, and “there” cannot be here, plus whatever started the big bang or whatever is over now. Our existence is here in this differentiated place. The “equal” days, if there ever were any, are gone. It is also doubtful that a One, such as some stuff, could even move if there was not another kind of thing—a place to move to or through or a method for doing so.

At any rate, I wouldn’t base my whole life and every word on any unseeable unknowable superstitions (a redundancy, I know, of repeating myself).

Also, claiming a certainty of equal is a very uncertain approximation in the face of all the wonderful diversity around us.

The one certainty is that you will probably say “equal”, but I am used to it by now. People can be just as good and true and meaningful and helpful in an unlabeled world.

Meaning is as meaning comes with the unequal amounts of learning for any of us.

[Graybeard]

Austin .... once again .. you sure said a pertinent mouthful. You have given me a better interpretation of Noumena than I had before.

As for the different species ... dolphins, apart from vision with eyes, can also see with sonar. They can vary the depth of this sonar like an adjustable Xray.

Dolphins can tell if we have a growth, a tumor, a cancer simply by looking at us. It has been mooted that they be trained for this purpose.

On a scale of brain to ability, that is take a Lion or an average predator, or herbivore, there brain cognitive functions are equal (theres that word again) to their ability to meet their survival requirements.

If this is considered a 1:1 ratio then Chimps have 3:1, that is, three times the processing functions and capacity they need to perform their daily survival chores.

If you think three is overmuch, humans have 7:1, so now you are wondering where do dolphins fall.

Dolphins fall in the range of 5.5:1 to 6:1. What do they do with this enormous capacity. After all, they don't fight wars, pollute their environment, build towering skyscrapers, nor do they make a nuisance of themselves in general.

No one knows. Studies are ongoing but no further enlightening. But its a very sobering thought. A natural selection that is yet to be fully understood, from our point of view of course. No doubt the dolphins know all about it.

What has this got to do with noumena. I believe that noumena, epistemology, consciousness all springs from sapience as in 'Sapiens' and that we homo sapiens have stolen this word that formerly applied to all mammals. Though this has never been proved.

cool bananas ... greg

[mkirkpatrick]

Self consciousness-awareness has many levels of depth,each of us is at a differing level
of perception and understanding,that which IS,that which at the relative end of the spectrum is phenomena,and at its source is noumena,we each "surface" within this vast
ocean,look around,and try and get our bearings.

Gradually we see patterns forming within the weave and woof of life's tapestery,a linking
"golden" thread seems to "emerge"a suggestion of indivisibility seems to occur,the idea of
many "things" falls back to one thing,from the many came the one,from one came many.


We are mind,made into form and "held" in place by the swirling embrace of Ying and Yang
That which IS holds us in-form-ation long enough to unfold the full sequence of this evolutionary cycle.


tbc

regards michael.

[MJA]

Subject: IS

An observers self-evident truth is only true when it equals nature's truth.

or simply

observers truth = nature's truth

or more simply

observer = nature

or most simply

=

or

one.

Oneness is nature's single truth!

MJA

[bottomlander]

Originally Posted by MJA Oneness is nature's single truth! MJA

Dear MJA,

Please refer to the words of Heraclitus (550-475 B.C.) "All things come out of the one and the one out of all things." as quoted by RascalPuff as a signature in all his postings.

That means at least 2,500 years ago, our ancestors already figured out Oneness. For generations, Oneness has become the foundation/mainstream in philosophy and physics for too many generations. Started from Oneness, people brought out many many details, steps, reasonings to theorize the different outcomes of Nature. We can hardly find any people don't have the trust on Oneness (Nothingness/Emptiness prior the Origin of the Universe also belongs to Oneness.)

Before, I wonder why it needs MJA to repeat and repeat to remind people about the Oneness and the hasty reduction to Oneness?
Now, as revealed by this sentence "Oneness is nature's single truth!", MJA reduces everything into one (or one truth) and propagandizes only a single truth.

"Single truth" is a term always propagandized by a dictator in his own country. In that country, all countrymen and countrywomen have been beautified as in equality, but actually all been sanded off in uniformality, no difference, no individuality (except the dictator).

Best Regards (But no regards to a maybe dictator). Bottomlander

[mkirkpatrick]

We are at the outer edge of reality,where the river of life flows swiftly,and there are many,on the inner spheres where the current slackens there are few,when the current
stops altogether,there are none! This is at the "border land" where noumena and phenomena meet,the borderland is the buffer zone between "ON" and "OFF"a place where
all the known universal laws cease,and are also born,sometimes called the protyle atom.



At our surface level,we are separated by the illusion of the many,"by distracting "things"
but at our deepest level,we know the difference.

At our deepest level of being,we are "IS",indefinable,and ultimately unknowable,yet we
are IT?

There can be no mistaking this ultimate conclusion,we are,knowable at the surface level
of existence,and relatively alive,but utterly unknowable at our ultimate being,where we are "IS" the Noumena,of which no discription is at all possible,and are LIFE-ITself,which
to us one the surface is like unto a darkened flame?

We may appear as many voices crying in the wilderness,and relatively we are,on the
surface of life we are many,at greater depth we grow fewer,what is it then that disappears?We still remain,however our individual concepts of whom we think we are
change vastly.

How can you explain the noumena? You cannot explain it in words,although I try and fail
miseribly,what you can do though is experience it,realize it,although you will never be able to fully,or even partly explain this reality in words,you will "know" in your heart of
hearts "that this is so!"


We have an enormous journey in front of us,to gradually step out of the darkness of
seperation and "things-full-ness" to the light of fuller consciousness and expansive perceptional awareness,which leads to more inclusivity,and things-"less" ness?

regards michael.

[MJA]

Originally Posted by bottomlander Dear MJA, Please refer to the words of Heraclitus (550-475 B.C.) "All things come out of the one and the one out of all things." as quoted by RascalPuff as a signature in all his postings. That means at least 2,500 years ago, our ancestors already figured out Oneness. For generations, Oneness has become the foundation/mainstream in philosophy and physics for too many generations. Started from Oneness, people brought out many many details, steps, reasonings to theorize the different outcomes of Nature. We can hardly find any people don't have the trust on Oneness (Nothingness/Emptiness prior the Origin of the Universe also belongs to Oneness.) Before, I wonder why it needs MJA to repeat and repeat to remind people about the Oneness and the hasty reduction to Oneness? Now, as revealed by this sentence "Oneness is nature's single truth!", MJA reduces everything into one (or one truth) and propagandizes only a single truth. "Single truth" is a term always propagandized by a dictator in his own country. In that country, all countrymen and countrywomen have been beautified as in equality, but actually all been sanded off in uniformality, no difference, no individuality (except the dictator). Best Regards (But no regards to a maybe dictator). Bottomlander

Dear Bottomlander,

I thought you should see this:
Oneness (concept)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search


Spirituality Portal
Oneness is a spiritual term referring to the 'experience' of the absence of egoic identity boundaries, and, according to some traditions, the perception of an absolute interconnectedness of all matter and thought in space-time, or one's ultimate identity with God (see Tat Tvam Asi). It shares traits with Pantheism. Its meaning may be synonymous to that of nonduality, though some claim that non-duality implies 'not one' and 'not two', i.e. non-duality is analogous to the Hindu formula of negation and to Neti Neti, used in describing the absolute.
A functional explanation has also been proposed as follows: the unification of consciousness with the subconsciousness to yield a supraconsciousness.[citation needed] Though some maintain that oneness necessarily transcends all consciousness per se.
Some feel that the human experiencing of Oneness expresses itself in the unity of thought and reality. They describe an experience of thought creating reality which feels like Omnipotence. However as the consciousness grows to encompass all, the ego becomes relatively insignificant. In its culmination, the seeker passes through ego death. This coincides with several teachings of different cultures:

• Hinduism speaks of the Dance of Kali on the dead body of Shiva.
• Jesus says: to enter the Kingdom of Heaven one has to be reborn in the Water and Spirit (see John 3:5 [1])
• Baha'u'llah taught that God responds to the seeker by drawing him 'from the realms of contradiction unto the retreats of oneness...numbered with those whom the light of God hath guided aright in this day.' Individual identies vanish as the seeker sees all the Prophets as one and the same Being, 'the Manifestation of the Self of God.' No change nor transformation exists in this realm. '...this is the station wherein the light of divine unity shineth forth, and the truth of His oneness is expressed...' To experience oneness, the seeker must enter the City of Divine Unity which is 'the garden of oneness, and the court of detachment.' (see Gems of Divine Mysteries)

For others, Oneness, the characteristic of being one, is a term used to characterize God in contrast to Christians who believe that the godhead is of a triune nature comprised of 3 distinct, but not separate, identities (see Trinity).

---------------------------------

I would like to add a few more thoughts of my own.

I could not find any mention of "dictator" in the above description of oneness as you suggest.
With regard to who should take claim for originating "oneness," It was not or is not a single person, but only nature itself.
Nature alone is the ultimate dictator of truth.

I do humbly and egoicly take claim for the simple reduction of e=mc2 to =, and at the same time, thank Einstein for showing me the way. = is the solution he was looking for, and the flaw of measure is all that stood in his way.

Beyond Relativity is Equality!

As far as my repeating and repeating oneness, sorry, it is only because this forum is searching and searching for the unifying truth of everything over and over again.

For every action, there is an equal reaction.

Oneness is the solution to all the question this forum asks.

In other words, the definition for TOE. is:

Truth is the Oneness of Everything.

Hope this helps.

=
MJA

[N0B0DY]

Some say that history repeats itself over and over as well. Who are we to argue?

I noticed you cited "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" without including the opposite, MJA. 1-1 can be representative of values of opposing forces that do not equal one, but two separate forces/values. When not separated, completely unified, they equal zero.

The other references you cited are based on one single linear force creating two circular forces at half the velocity to create matter. The former represents light and the latter matter, but since the light is offset at every point by its opposite force (gravity), and vice-versa, there is no absolute/accurate point where there is a force.

You also cited in another thread that uncertain measurements refer to reality. This is because we're dealing with velocities infinitely reduced by half for an uncertain amount of time. The "matter" created merges to form an opposite linear force that creates other circular forces at half that velocity infinitely. Without uncertainty, there is no reality, and trying to accurately measure uncertain reality would require an infinitely fast computer.

Equating everything to one is justified only if you can accurately tell us what the one is. Otherwise the one must remain equal to none.

[mkirkpatrick]

Noumena=IS,unknowable,what little can be said regards this IS,is that it must be the source of All existance,without exception,and must be something called Spirit,or even
the Very Life of Life itself!

While this Noumena remains "Wrapped" within itself,there in absolutely no-thing
present anywhere,an absolute unknowable darkened flame of life-unexpressed.


I maintain that at the onset of motion,a great stirring of the will,phenomena is born
into relativity,and this ether(soul) becomes the cloth that is used to weave matter
and light into form and formality?


When self awareness is reached,the "awoken" individual is then subjected to higher
universal laws,and gradually becomes accountable for all actions and deeds.Indeed,
responsibility,is placed firmally within the mind of the awoken one,via the conscience
acting upon the physical brain.

tbc

regards michael.