[WithoutMe]

1

I want to know my own eyes. Now to achieve this, I can either read about eyes in general to find out the nature of mine, or, I can see my own eyes directly using a mirror. The former is of the secondary knowledge type, while the latter is of the primary knowledge type. As a third alternative, I can stop my wanting to see my own eyes, because there is nothing to see when what I see with is what I want to see; this alternative approach being of - what one is!

Thus, in all cases, we generate problems, such as wanting to see our own eyes, when in reality there are none. We generate a problem because that creates the possibility of its opposite, that is, its solution, which gives to solving it, & through that, we feel more real, whereas these are all quick fixes to the business of searching for the soul. We then go about to solve them, but as the problem is really not out there, the solution is also not out there, in all the external things that our aims gets divested to, is an utter waste! Thus, every solution to a problem becomes a source for a new problem; like after seeing my own eyes, I may want to know further about the workings of it. After knowing about the workings of it, one wants to get into the details of it & this process of going into it is ad-infinitum, or this "going-into" business then divests into the enquiry of some other things & thus, it diverges all sorts of topics! Thus, this ad-infinitum case is adherent in every thing we do...

We always talk about changing the world whereas we hardly ever give a serious thought on changing ourselves. We do so many things, learn so many facts, but never witness our selves in action. We hanker on what we don't have, we dream of what we might have, but never realize the extent and the potential of what we have. We always seek to be understood, but never give enough attention to understand ourselves. In all, we always miss out the most essential and the obvious of all things, and that is the self. We do so because it is all so obvious. Infact the easiest thing to miss is the one that is right in front of our eyes, so obvious, because ultimately, the obvious in a way becomes oblivious to our ways of looking out! However, can this be turned upside down?

2

Infact just observe this closely: - Nirvana literally mean "devoid of desires", but an aspiring monk, who desires to achieve this state, is itself denying himself the state in which he is in; he instead wants to change over from his present state of desire to a state of no-desire (i.e., he is denying his NOW)... but even a desire to attain a state of no-desire, is itself a desire. Hence, he can free himself of all desires, except for this very desire to have no-desire, & infact this singular desire alone will bring about all the other desires along with it (even be it mostly unconscious), which in turn creates all this chaos, which we call the mind!

Infact why in the first place one wants to be freed of desires?
Why this desire for no-desire?

Does the mind then really exist? Or, is mind the amalgamation of all that has been put on us by books, media, society, people, all our experiences, in short, is mind then the shadow of our past on our present? Is then mind then nothing but a Myth?

Then can one get rid of all this past, as in not to go against it, to not even go towards it, but to stay where one is, without any titillation, devoid of any excitation, utterly still, so that no past calls one, so that one is devoid of one's mind?

Or, do u believe that this no-mind state belongs to a privileged group of humans (or God-men as they r called), call them the Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus or whatever... the name doesn't really matter!!! But is this only for a privileged few?
Why would that be? Isn't that our mind trying to convince us in a way so that we even try to get rid of it? Isn't such a conviction of thinking that enlightenment is for the very few, just an excuse?

Is the mind then a self-propagating myth?

Infact, using the mind (with all its thoughts & its magic wand of feelings & experiences) to free the mind, is like asking the policemen to become the thief... its utterly paradoxical!!!!

The pt. is not in mimicking something, some way of life or someone (even that someone be the Buddha, Muhammad or whoever)...... can't one just be what one truly is?

To become spiritual, one must learn to see, to see things as they are, not how one wants them to be or assumes they are, & that is possible only in going beyond every good & evil, coz morality is the booby-trap of one's desire to see things as one wants it to be! This requires a will that can suspend itself, which requires great strength. Without such a will, we are slaves to every impulse, we fall into every vice. Thus, spirituality in its most banal sense is the will to no-will!

Contrary to most popular belief, it is not in following someone or being part of a school of thought, be it of even of praying to something (be it "God", the Almighty or whatever), or repeating some mantra or whatever the crap or even doing something like sitting for hours without moving & all that rubbish! True spirituality is the blood of every free-spirit!

What do you say? Or, are you just reading this like some story or gospel or just another information mail & all! Then plz stop reading it now, & start asking yourself.... why?

Why in the bluest of all blue hells, - why?

3

True freedom is the ability to put up with hardship, even death (others' or one's own), not for any cause or reason, coz even that would be bonded to that cause, but inspite of it... yes, not because of it or against it, but inspite of it. So, is the free man a warrior?

True freedom is in saying "YES to everything questionable, even to the terrible."
Now, can that be possible??

Yes, now, not tomorrow, not after some act or meditation or some sort of schooling, but NOW?

Can one give up all of one's desire to attain no-desire, & can one do it "now"?

One cannot proceed from a state of desire to that of no-desire, because even that is a path & every path is bounded by the starting-point & by the destination, whereas true freedom cannot even be bound up by a starting or a destination! So, wanting to achieve that state of Nirvana (or whatever name one gives it) is itself a talk, a want, a wish, a thought which is to be realized tomorrow, & the "tomorrow" is just another name for all our hopes, desires, fears & all that is part of the conflict which we so unknowingly hide out as "path to liberation"! Instead of all that, can one do it now?

Regards,
wM.

PS.If we had an answer to everything, we would stop questioning and eventually stop learning, then again, what is there to learn? & learn for what? Survival, pleasure, habit, compulsion, ignorance.... or what?

[mkirkpatrick]

May I say,Withoutme,that your thread here is most thoughtful and profound,
and one that deserves five stars!I need time to consider a full response,but will say this,now,you asked is the free man,a warrior?Yes he is!Provided of course,that he chooses to be,and also understands that he is free!Can one
give up all disire,and drop all of this load in a day?Well yes they can,although
I have never meet anyone who has achieved this!Nevertheless I am confident that itis possible.I hope this thread of yours attracts much response,it certainly deserves to do so.

kind regards michael.

[harmonygirl]

WM, very engaging thread. This detachment is something that I have personally struggled with for quite a while. Your wise words are helping me, and likely, others.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Excellent questioning and thought provoking post, WM. Sort of like Ben Franklin's "Pain and Pleasure..." I accept the fact we can not know pleasure without knowing pain___it is meaningless, otherwise... I also liked your points about transcendence, ascendence, descendence and inscendence... Keep up the great ideas...

regards

[Mohan.C]

Originally Posted by WithoutMe 1 I want to know my own eyes. Now to achieve this, I can either read about eyes in general to find out the nature of mine, or, I can see my own eyes directly using a mirror. The former is of the secondary knowledge type, while the latter is of the primary knowledge type. As a third alternative, I can stop my wanting to see my own eyes, because there is nothing to see when what I see with is what I want to see; this alternative approach being of - what one is! Thus, in all cases, we generate problems, such as wanting to see our own eyes, when in reality there are none. We generate a problem because that creates the possibility of its opposite, that is, its solution, which gives to solving it, & through that, we feel more real, whereas these are all quick fixes to the business of searching for the soul. We then go about to solve them, but as the problem is really not out there, the solution is also not out there, in all the external things that our aims gets divested to, is an utter waste! Thus, every solution to a problem becomes a source for a new problem; like after seeing my own eyes, I may want to know further about the workings of it. After knowing about the workings of it, one wants to get into the details of it & this process of going into it is ad-infinitum, or this "going-into" business then divests into the enquiry of some other things & thus, it diverges all sorts of topics! Thus, this ad-infinitum case is adherent in every thing we do... We always talk about changing the world whereas we hardly ever give a serious thought on changing ourselves. We do so many things, learn so many facts, but never witness our selves in action. We hanker on what we don't have, we dream of what we might have, but never realize the extent and the potential of what we have. We always seek to be understood, but never give enough attention to understand ourselves. In all, we always miss out the most essential and the obvious of all things, and that is the self. We do so because it is all so obvious. Infact the easiest thing to miss is the one that is right in front of our eyes, so obvious, because ultimately, the obvious in a way becomes oblivious to our ways of looking out! However, can this be turned upside down? 2 Infact just observe this closely: - Nirvana literally mean "devoid of desires", but an aspiring monk, who desires to achieve this state, is itself denying himself the state in which he is in; he instead wants to change over from his present state of desire to a state of no-desire (i.e., he is denying his NOW)... but even a desire to attain a state of no-desire, is itself a desire. Hence, he can free himself of all desires, except for this very desire to have no-desire, & infact this singular desire alone will bring about all the other desires along with it (even be it mostly unconscious), which in turn creates all this chaos, which we call the mind! Infact why in the first place one wants to be freed of desires? Why this desire for no-desire? Does the mind then really exist? Or, is mind the amalgamation of all that has been put on us by books, media, society, people, all our experiences, in short, is mind then the shadow of our past on our present? Is then mind then nothing but a Myth? Then can one get rid of all this past, as in not to go against it, to not even go towards it, but to stay where one is, without any titillation, devoid of any excitation, utterly still, so that no past calls one, so that one is devoid of one's mind? Or, do u believe that this no-mind state belongs to a privileged group of humans (or God-men as they r called), call them the Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus or whatever... the name doesn't really matter!!! But is this only for a privileged few? Why would that be? Isn't that our mind trying to convince us in a way so that we even try to get rid of it? Isn't such a conviction of thinking that enlightenment is for the very few, just an excuse? Is the mind then a self-propagating myth? Infact, using the mind (with all its thoughts & its magic wand of feelings & experiences) to free the mind, is like asking the policemen to become the thief... its utterly paradoxical!!!! The pt. is not in mimicking something, some way of life or someone (even that someone be the Buddha, Muhammad or whoever)...... can't one just be what one truly is? To become spiritual, one must learn to see, to see things as they are, not how one wants them to be or assumes they are, & that is possible only in going beyond every good & evil, coz morality is the booby-trap of one's desire to see things as one wants it to be! This requires a will that can suspend itself, which requires great strength. Without such a will, we are slaves to every impulse, we fall into every vice. Thus, spirituality in its most banal sense is the will to no-will! Contrary to most popular belief, it is not in following someone or being part of a school of thought, be it of even of praying to something (be it "God", the Almighty or whatever), or repeating some mantra or whatever the crap or even doing something like sitting for hours without moving & all that rubbish! True spirituality is the blood of every free-spirit! What do you say? Or, are you just reading this like some story or gospel or just another information mail & all! Then plz stop reading it now, & start asking yourself.... why? Why in the bluest of all blue hells, - why? 3 True freedom is the ability to put up with hardship, even death (others' or one's own), not for any cause or reason, coz even that would be bonded to that cause, but inspite of it... yes, not because of it or against it, but inspite of it. So, is the free man a warrior? True freedom is in saying "YES to everything questionable, even to the terrible." Now, can that be possible?? Yes, now, not tomorrow, not after some act or meditation or some sort of schooling, but NOW? Can one give up all of one's desire to attain no-desire, & can one do it "now"? One cannot proceed from a state of desire to that of no-desire, because even that is a path & every path is bounded by the starting-point & by the destination, whereas true freedom cannot even be bound up by a starting or a destination! So, wanting to achieve that state of Nirvana (or whatever name one gives it) is itself a talk, a want, a wish, a thought which is to be realized tomorrow, & the "tomorrow" is just another name for all our hopes, desires, fears & all that is part of the conflict which we so unknowingly hide out as "path to liberation"! Instead of all that, can one do it now? Regards, wM. PS.If we had an answer to everything, we would stop questioning and eventually stop learning, then again, what is there to learn? & learn for what? Survival, pleasure, habit, compulsion, ignorance.... or what?

WM,
My earlier thoughts were the same. And I have found out that for all your questions the answer is yes. But to attain no desire you are not desiring as I always say 'There is nothing to understand; there is only to realize' It will be a realization for one who craves for it. It will be instinctual. And he will realize it when he expects it the least. It is not desire it is "Will"

[Unreal Zelta]

WM,
We cannot resist the temptation of solving a problem, unless the problem is produced by someone else.

Best regards

Zelta