[Mr. Nobody]

Without me using the search function to avoid a repeat post, I would like to pose a simple question:
What do you think came first: The fundamental laws that govern reality or random behavior that became fundamental laws via evolution towards increasing complexity. Not a trick question, but an important distinction to determine the reality of a solvable TOE.

My standpoint is the latter, simple because I am a firm believer in the anthropic principle and evolution. Random fluctuations of a high density energy field, caused an enormous release of energy (alignment of matter for Dave ). That in conjunction to our inability to view unsuccessful organization, created the perception of an intelligent force behind matter re-assembly. We are creating laws of favorable behavior that can be observed as we go along, but on the most fundamental level, the individual will never be more than a collection of randomn fluctuations assembled for a short time to slow entropy in a continuum of evolution towards ever increasing complexity to form a social order or super organism

[mkirkpatrick]

A very interesting thread starter Mr nobody,thank you for the question,I see
it this way,what came first was the idea to form,then the idea was brought
into intent to focus,the focussed intention brought about the process of
involution,in which principle was wrapped within principle,and rolled ever
outwards into the void,then there incurred a momentary pause,and the cycle
began to roll back,this was the birth of evolution,the rest as they say is history!


kind regards michael.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

I agree with your standpoint, Mr. Nobody___order from chaos, or better stated[random behavior first]...

regards

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody Without me using the search function to avoid a repeat post, I would like to pose a simple question: What do you think came first: The fundamental laws that govern reality or random behavior that became fundamental laws via evolution towards increasing complexity. Not a trick question, but an important distinction to determine the reality of a solvable TOE. My standpoint is the latter, simple because I am a firm believer in the anthropic principle and evolution. Random fluctuations of a high density energy field, caused an enormous release of energy (alignment of matter for Dave ). That in conjunction to our inability to view unsuccessful organization, created the perception of an intelligent force behind matter re-assembly. We are creating laws of favorable behavior that can be observed as we go along, but on the most fundamental level, the individual will never be more than a collection of randomn fluctuations assembled for a short time to slow entropy in a continuum of evolution towards ever increasing complexity to form a social order or super organism

[Guille]

I also agree. It isn't possible that a universe in change of form remains with the same laws. That F=ma I'm sure wasn't true for a just after the big bang, nor will it be towards the end of the universe whether it is to rip or to come anti-big bang. Now I ask: What are the laws that govern the random behaviour which denoted the laws of the universe? Is it a meta-random behaviour? No I really made it look like the chicken and the egg.

[Mr. Nobody]

Anybody have a different opinion, one in which a plan comes before the action, one in which there is intent?

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody Anybody have a different opinion, one in which a plan comes before the action, one in which there is intent?

Mr nobody.what came first was indeed the intention,the intention to IN-FORM,which means literally what the word says!The idea arising,becoming
potent by intent,becoming narrowed by focused-intention,leading to the
solidification of ideation,by focussed and prolonged intent,Which by the way
is still in progress,and will continue to be until the end of this universal cycle
then the intention will be withdrawn,and obscouration will immediatly ensue!


kind regardsmichael.

[Mr. Nobody]

Michael;
I have seen your cheerfully positive answers to many conflicting questions. Your certainty in karmic energy that shapes intent, a force that willed existence seems curious to me to say the least.
When I look around I see nothing more than an experiment. Nature evolved over many eons without consciousness and did just fine, it did not need human awareness, a language, words, symbols to express success, an autonom, a part of nature itself, questioning every move, every twitch and dissecting every tremor to name the frightening reality of temporal existence between its birth and its death and to give meaning and reason to nature and all surrounding existence.
It is my understanding that matter organized itself in reaction to expanding universal entropy and that the observer happened along the way. Without the observer, any observer, it all remains outside reality, unknown, unknowable, irrelevant and inconsequential, so why does the presence of a conscious witness suddenly inject meaning and intent? What was there before us, before your thoughts? What happens without us, without your thoughts? Us, you and me, the universe looking into the mirror.
I am atheist by deduction, not due to experience, but by applying reason that was thrust into my skull, to observe my surroundings, by using my intuition and my instinct to the fundamental questions, that plaque us all. I dont worship and dont proclaim logic to reign supreme and to have the answer to it all, I understand that there are and will be many mysteries unresolved. However, I see nothing divine, I see no intention, no inform, no solidification of ideation, I see probabilities and decoherance of quantum-mechanical information, passed on to congregate and stabilize one outcome, the outcome we are witness to, the experiment we all are part of. You, me, society, information within the universe are programed to be recycled for an eternity as energy (matter) re-incarnated with no end. This makes life liberating to me, to feel the absence of intention, to know that there is no balance, no justice, no reward and no punishment other than what we deem and find appropriate. Our actions are not of free will, out of context, without influence but are traced to our ancestors and what worked to form the society that in-forms you..........Darwin style

[Nobody]

I would have to opt for neither chicken nor egg, unless someone can tell me what would be outside of the chicken or egg.

If there is no outside, there can be no chicken or egg outside of the mind of an observer; and so being, both the chicken and egg must be stored within the DNA as two separate effects of evolution.

Of course, evolution requires time, but from a universal perspective there is no time.

[mkirkpatrick]

I wish take time firstlyto thank you Mr Nobody,and secondly to reply to your
interesting post.You say that you are an athiest by deduction,I can understand that,I too have been in that position!You further state that you
are curious about the cheerful and concise answers i give to rather complex
questions?Why is this I wonder Mr nobody!Maybe the anchor of your self
imposed athesism is beginning to loose its "bondage" tothe bottom,and your
inner ideas about reality as you see it,are about to be reformed?I started out
many moons ago,being an atheist,then i moved on to become an un-believer!
Then a believer,now I no longer believe,I know!Not because someone "told"
me,or I read in a "book" somewhere!Butby my own personal experience,and
awakening into reality,as it is?And not the dream state that many mistake
for the real.I know now that all is one,and that the Entire Universe is the
product of Focussed Intention or FI for short!That we are souls with physical
bodies,and not the other way round?

kind regards michael.

[Mr. Nobody]

Originally Posted by Nobody I would have to opt for neither chicken nor egg, unless someone can tell me what would be outside of the chicken or egg. If there is no outside, there can be no chicken or egg outside of the mind of an observer; and so being, both the chicken and egg must be stored within the DNA as two separate effects of evolution. Of course, evolution requires time, but from a universal perspective there is no time.

Nice handle;
Quantum mechanics offers some insight. When you look at the microwave background radiation of the COBE satelite pictures, you can see the hot spots (by 1/10,000 degree warmer) line up with overall galaxy or matter density distribution. So it appears as if a field, or better yet quantum jitters of this field, was/is the source. The inflationary theory then attmepts to explain the relative uniformity and flatness of space. I like this concept a lot.
What this discussion was meant to address is whether the laws of nature are pre-determined or whether they evolved? My answer is in the first post. Evolution side steps intent of the "why" question in favor of hit and miss on its way of organization and energy redistribution. Whatever works(ed) to produce the observer asking the question is what and why it happened