[RascalPuff]

Millennia before Western Civilization's science determined the expanding universe, for example, the philosophy of the East (Brahman, and others) knew it. Fritjov Capra's Dancing Wu Lei Masters and Tao of Physics sites example after example of the Eastern Philosophy's prescient knowledge of what the West discovered and otherwise realized only much later.

This fact is fairly well known and understood now by many Westerners, who have adopted much of the philosophy of the East in order to accomodate a better understanding of Western Science. This is all well and good, until the mixture of Eastern Philosophy with Western Science serves only to confuse the latter. By this I mean that I have observed in this forum and others an aversiveness to the Western approach to problem solving. Some science acolytes have adopted a philosophy of rejecting terms such as 'speed', 'expansion', 'motion', 'space', 'time' - 'there is no time, only the eternal now'... 'reduce your multiple dimension to one dimension', 'avoid division of nature through the process of measurement'; etceteras.

Frequently there is only a partial understanding of Eastern philosophy on the part of it's Western practitioners. This cultural contrast and the efforts to eradicate it often results only in the further confusion of standard terms practiced by Western thinkers.

The other side of this coin is that often Western Science has surpassed the Philosophy of the East, while there is an overcompensatory inclination to diminish or exclude Western principles of scientific thought. Such partial understandings and complete misunderstandings only serve to further confuse the processes of scientific method.

In accordance with some schools of thought in these regards, a statement such as 'measuring the speed of the expansion of space' is declared meaningless by some of the Western dilletantes of Eastern philosophy.
'Measurement' is rejected. 'Speed' is rejected, the concept of 'motion' is rejected along with the concepts of 'space' and 'time'. ('There is only the eternal now') Etceteras...

As I have previously observed, if and when the Eastern Philosophy is to be carried out in its extremes and imposed on Western Philosophy, then, for example, all verbal communications stop. Why? 'Because a truly wise man says nothing'. That may be a practical ideal in the East, but it is not a practical ideal in the West. It is the transposition of contexts - the superimposition of a standard from a culture wherein it may be pragmatically practiced, onto a culture where it is not practical at all.

Although there are many misusages and misunderstandings about the meanings of certain words, still, there are specific definitions for 'time', 'space', 'measurement', 'dimensions' 'past, present and future', 'motion', 'expansion' and so on...

These are valid instruments of communication, the abandonment of which serves only to further confuse whatever clarification is sought. Reminiscent of George Orwell's 'destruction of the language (NewSpeak)', or the 'babble' of Babylon - where communication is compromised and people no longer understand or communicate with one another.

The 'wisdom of the East' is not to be denied. Whereas, it is of no use to the Western culture if and when it is misapplied and subsequently misunderstood.

That I know of, the first large social wave of this kind of misunderstanding was popularised by the well intended 'hippies', on Haight Street, in the mid-late '60's. The word 'karma' was rigidly translated to mean that any misfortune suffered by any individual under any circumstances was always the fault of whomever suffered. This misunderstanding constituted a passive ruthlessness and antisympathetic posturing toward victims of whatever description - blaming the victim. ('Karma' means 'what you do and are responsible for', it does not mean to take on the responsibility of the motivations and acts of others or that the victim is invariably responsible for what others may do...)

This grotesque misunderstanding came to be the dominant paradigm within a group of otherwise gentle and peaceful people - the hippies, and the 'hippie mentality'. All this in the midst of a Christian culture, where the savior of them all was a person without sin, who was tormented and tortured to death... In a situation that was by definition not the 'karma' of the victim, but rather, exclusively, the 'karma' of his antagonists, as they projected their karma on him...
Although this is a theistic example of the transposition of Eastern Philosphy on Western Standards, the object lesson makes itself clear.

In summary, there is little doubt that the West has much to learn from the East, but there is also a cautionary regarding the misunderstandings that all too often accompany the practiced transitions.

Thank you for reading this missive and please feel free to say what you think of it.

(I will now, along with many others, resume my efforts to measure the speed of the expansion of space-time, along with several other relatively important - East meets West related - projects.)

Regards, RP

[RascalPuff]

Millennia before Western Civilization's science determined the expanding universe, for example, the philosophy of the East (Brahman, and others) knew it. Fritjov Capra's Dancing Wu Lei Masters and Tao of Physics sites example after example of the Eastern Philosophy's prescient knowledge of what the West discovered and otherwise realized only much later.

This fact is fairly well known and understood now by many Westerners, who have adopted much of the philosophy of the East in order to accomodate a better understanding of Western Science. This is all well and good, until the mixture of Eastern Philosophy with Western Science serves only to confuse the latter. By this I mean that I have observed in this forum and others an aversiveness to the Western approach to problem solving. Some science acolytes have adopted a philosophy of rejecting terms such as 'speed', 'expansion', 'motion', 'space', 'time' - 'there is no time, only the eternal now'... 'reduce your multiple dimension to one dimension', 'avoid division of nature through the process of measurement'; etceteras.

Frequently there is only a partial understanding of Eastern philosophy on the part of it's Western practitioners. This cultural contrast and the efforts to eradicate it often results only in the further confusion of standard terms practiced by Western thinkers.

The other side of this coin is that often Western Science has surpassed the Philosophy of the East, while there is an overcompensatory inclination to diminish or exclude Western principles of scientific thought. Such partial understandings and complete misunderstandings only serve to further confuse the processes of scientific method.

In accordance with some schools of thought in these regards, a statement such as 'measuring the speed of the expansion of space' is declared meaningless by some of the Western dilletantes of Eastern philosophy.
'Measurement' is rejected. 'Speed' is rejected, the concept of 'motion' is rejected along with the concepts of 'space' and 'time'. ('There is only the eternal now') Etceteras...

As I have previously observed, if and when the Eastern Philosophy is to be carried out in its extremes and imposed on Western Philosophy, then, for example, all verbal communications stop. Why? 'Because a truly wise man says nothing'. That may be a practical ideal in the East, but it is not a practical ideal in the West. It is the transposition of contexts - the superimposition of a standard from a culture wherein it may be pragmatically practiced, onto a culture where it is not practical at all.

Although there are many misusages and misunderstandings about the meanings of certain words, still, there are specific definitions for 'time', 'space', 'measurement', 'dimensions' 'past, present and future', 'motion', 'expansion' and so on...

These are valid instruments of communication, the abandonment of which serves only to further confuse whatever clarification is sought. Reminiscent of George Orwell's 'destruction of the language (NewSpeak)', or the 'babble' of Babylon - where communication is compromised and people no longer understand or communicate with one another.

The 'wisdom of the East' is not to be denied. Whereas, it is of no use to the Western culture if and when it is misapplied and subsequently misunderstood.

That I know of, the first large social wave of this kind of misunderstanding was popularised by the well intended 'hippies', on Haight Street, in the mid-late '60's. The word 'karma' was rigidly translated to mean that any misfortune suffered by any individual under any circumstances was always the fault of whomever suffered. This misunderstanding constituted a passive ruthlessness and antisympathetic posturing toward victims of whatever description - blaming the victim. ('Karma' means 'what you do and are responsible for', it does not mean to take on the responsibility of the motivations and acts of others or that the victim is invariably responsible for what others may do...)

This grotesque misunderstanding came to be the dominant paradigm within a group of otherwise gentle and peaceful people - the hippies, and the 'hippie mentality'. All this in the midst of a Christian culture, where the savior of them all was a person without sin, who was tormented and tortured to death... In a situation that was by definition not the 'karma' of the victim, but rather, exclusively, the 'karma' of his antagonists, as they projected their karma on him...
Although this is a theistic example of the transposition of Eastern Philosphy on Western Standards, the object lesson makes itself clear.

In summary, there is little doubt that the West has much to learn from the East, but there is also a cautionary regarding the misunderstandings that all too often accompany the practiced transitions.

Thank you for reading this missive and please feel free to say what you think of it.

(I will now, along with many others, resume my efforts to measure the speed of the expansion of space-time, along with several other relatively important - East meets West related - projects.)

Regards, RP

[N0B0DY]

Good posting, RP.

I think another grotesque misrepresentation of the East, even by many modern-day easterners, is that the eternal one is the goal as to somehow assume an equal position and remain in that nirvanic state.

That the West is reaching the point where that concept of unification coincides with recent evidence studied by westerners, leads to another misrepresentation of the truth. Whereby on the one hand we have a spiritual-type unification, and the other a physical-type unification; one an eternal state of bliss, and the other an eternity of material luxuries in this universe.

No one wants to focus on the Eternal Return, to learn why things go wrong.

[MJA]

Physically and historically east meets west in a place called Bysantium, later called Constantinople, and today Instanbul. What a wonderful place it must be.

Mentally east meets west in the minds of thought, perception, or measure. We can think differently, we can perceive nothing, we can measure without certainty; that choice is called free will. But we can only truly unite the thoughts of east and west, or the minds of all, by the simple thought of equality or one.

What a wonderful thought of unity for all it will be.

If it is only our minds that divide us, then we know the problem and whence one day a solution will come.

That wonderful place or thought is here and it is called One!!!

MJA
.

[N0B0DY]

Well, you had me until you reverted to the conventional "one" and the ability to perceive nothing, and everything went fubar again, MJA.

Whatever toots your horn I guess. @(-_-)@

[RascalPuff]

Ideal and ideaology. The ideal being what a given individual or culture aspires to practicing.
The ideaololgy being the actual dynamic of what a person or culture actually practices.

A Ph.D friend of mine specializes in philology (the study of the evolution of languages), from whom, as I've mentioned before, I learned the derivational meaning of 'atonement'. The word translates to 'at one ment'. It is a spiritual and intellectual ideal. Much more Eastern than Western (But we're learning?).

Continuity and discontinuity - when the ideal and the ideaology parallel each other, they are continuously atoned. When the ideal and the idealogy are disparate from one another, then the ideal is not being practiced, and is discontinuous from a given ideal or set of belief systems, even when it - the ideal - is recognized and held up as a goal. For this reason and in this way the ideal and the ideaology do not always parallel each other, this bifurcartion is particularly true of the Western materilaist culture, which is, however unfortunately, internationally notorious for saying one thing, and doing another.

This standard also and notably applies to the disparity in physical science today. Continuity and discontinuity. Field physics and quantum mechanics. Fritjov Capra frequently refers to these considerations in his written works - The Tao of Physics, and, The Dancing Wu Lei Masters. The separation between East and West appears to be closing in matters of cultural Idealogy, and the separation between physical continuity and discontinuity is likewise perceived as an unnecessary division on its way to intellectual and spirtual amendment. A kind of mediation is in order and underway, where the two considered cultural, philosophical and scientific standards meet and adjoin in a realization that each has much to learn and benefit by, from the other. Closing for now on a poetic note of prose, Truly Yours is Eurasian, and learned much of this from a Mongolian mother.
Given that the agreed reason for being here in this forum is to share, in a search of a Theory of Everything, it follows, as to be expected, that discussions such as this will continue and hopefully evolve in a progressive manner, aspiring to the mergence of discontinuity with continuity, and ideal with ideaology.

- Regards, RP

[RascalPuff]

Accidental double post. It seems that my preview is also being posted.

[mkirkpatrick]

East is meeting west,and west is meeting east,it is interesting that an Indian scientist
is leading in the west with eastern ideas of consciousness underlying matter?




regards michael.

[neutralino]

Moderation note: I've moved two threads here and merged. Both opening posts leftm as they look slightly different.