[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by enton

There are people who happen to claim they have the truth, but perhaps, only what they consider as "the truth". When one evaluates a thing, he/she shall consider some things. I remember the quotation form Pascal, "it is far better to know something about everything than to know everything all about one thing." Thos quotation from B. Pascal is not in harmony with Biblical truths.

Why not try "truth in focus" religious program here : http://www.churchofgodinternational....eg_focus_1.htm or if you want to listen the webcast click www.theoldpath.tv and browse Video Gallery archive.

Enton I repect your beliefs,I also respect the "good book"
and I would respect you even more if you spoke for yourself,without quoting
chapter and verse,or by directing me to some web site,formore quotes,you
are also a man,and as such,are entitled to speak,and say what You Think?

kindest regards michael.

[harmonygirl]

Guille, that's too bad that is how you concieve of people and your world. I don't live in that world. In my world people are kind, moral and strive to be good. There are exceptions of course, but generally people seek knowledge and love. I guess your world is right for you. I know my world is right for me.

[mkirkpatrick]

To fully realize the truth,and of course to know it,we have to become the
embodiment of truth itself?Who was it that said,I am the truth and the way?
We have to become it,to know it!Ifyou try and explain truth,you are at once
caught up in a lie,because you cannot talk "about" truth,truth exists in the
"ever" "present" NOW,and cannot in truth,be talked about in the "past-tense"



kind regards michael.

[greenwaves]

If you consider truth to be complete and factual than I believe it must be a constant in order to have effectiveness. The definition of truth can be far-reaching and have many functions. Truth must always be relevant in our universe and beyond from the beginning to the end. I believe math is one of the most universal paradigms of truth. Math gives us an absolute truth that is unaffected by our interpretations or understanding. We may not know everything about math, but our understanding and ability to learn all it entails is our only limitation. Truth is a constant that we may not ever completely be able to fully discover all of its particulars. Truth may have many dimensions, possibilities, and applications, but they must be complete even in a changing and expansive universe. Our ability to obtain the complete definition of truth is limited by our exposure and devices to formulate a complete knowledge of it. We live on a very isolated and minuscule piece of this universe with restricted opportunities to see all that truth encompasses. I am not even sure that if we as humans in this existence had the opportunity to be exposed to all possibilities that embody truth that our human brains have the capacity to accurately understand all aspects of truth. The variable to the truth equation is our incomplete ability to dissect and relate the truth. The limitations of our experiences, available resources, capacity for reason and knowledge, ability to ask the appropriate questions…are the obstacles. Ultimately I believe like many early philosophers that collectively we will be able to reach a better understanding of truth as we expand our minds and as we evolve. A more accurate synthesis of truth is believed by many philosophers to be the ultimate goal of enlightenment. Truth must not alter as we do. If truth is altered in any way then it has no assurance or claim to the facts. Truth without validity is subjective, easily manipulated and distorted.

I like what you said here. You got me thinking more about what truth is. Are observations true? I understand that you are stating that our beliefs are established by our deductions of our observations of our experiences. I’m just not sure that the conclusions that we make from our observations are true. Our conclusions made from our observations may be true to us as a belief system but is a belief the same as a truth? Do you perceive the cat behaving a certain way or is the cat participating in the actual act you observe? I’m not sure a complete definition of truth is established through our observations. Most witnesses at a crime scene have their own unique recollections of events. Our minds piece together the images that we see by adding familiar images from many observations we have collected over the years. The human brain completes visual pictures for our minds to interpret as our reality. How much of what we see is truth and how much is what we create from the experience of observing?

[r.p.bibra]

The little-self would put the question to his puny-self; what is truth? truth to me is the ultimate-reality i.e., the reality of the creator! According to the spiritualists---those who believe in the ‘existence of God’---whether creation has a creator! For them truth means; unchanging able reality, which is eternal, hence not subject to any of the laws of nature, because It Itself is the cause and the effect. They are least interested in Its effect---the creation. They leave this area of enquiry wide open for the scientists of the physical world.
Now the next logical question that crops up in the puny-mind is, if the truth is eternal-reality, how could it create (manifest) out of it a transient world, which is not only phenomenal but always changing? Simply put; how infinite could give birth to finite world? The third question; how come the spiritualists claim to have ‘realized’ the reality of the creator, whereas we hardly know anything about Its creation! Whereas the fact should have been the other way round.
All of this was made possible by human intelligence, whose synthesis came out in the form of a subject, philosophy. It was human ingenuity that this subject not only incorporated the knowledge of the physical sciences but contained also the gems of wisdom of the contemporary times, besides the ancient heritage. On the other hand science restricted itself only within the ambit of nature. During the last ten thousand years this subject has been thrashed with such a precision & thoroughness that it has exhausted its limits. This is now a dead subject, not because there is dearth of ‘intelligentsia’, but it had found its horizons stalled against the walls of ‘hypocrisy’. The only work the philosophers are left with is the disputation over definitions.
But this subject----which is known in east as ‘spiritualism’---has established a ‘direct’ link with the creator, bypassing the spheres of the phenomenal world of ‘matter’. This they did by discovering the element of consciousness in the living beings. They found that consciousness not only was present in the living but in the inert as well. So much so they had ‘known’ in the ancient past that even the subtle particles had conscious. And this consciousness was the cause of creation. So without bothering to go into the physical nuances of nature, they directly confronted the ‘principle’ behind its creation. And that truth/principle was “aham brahmanasmi” (I am Brahman---the cause/creator). In olden times our sages and seers found/realized this truth, and as the result, had acquired control over matter. The wisdom of this knowledge was not monopolized by them only, others had also ‘realized’ the similar truth by devising their own systems. For the satisfaction of the skeptics’’; pl. read “autobiography of a yogi” by swami Yoganandha & “Himalayan masters” by swami Rama (the latter left his mortal body only 2-3 years back& he spent most of his life, like Yoganandha, in the west. Even now there are many such sages, anyone is welcome to ‘meet’ interact with them. Philosophy (spiritualism) is not a theoretical subject. It is a complete science with all its applied disciplines. All are skillfully charted. Anyone can give it try and find the ‘Big-Answer’ themselves! Little-self. (ls., knows as he has done his, preliminary, homework).

[mkirkpatrick]

Bibra,ls.Your reply was most interesting,and re-affirms what I have written
in the past about the nature of existance being known for thousands of
years in the east.in particular India.Your use of the word Spiritualism,is somewhat confusing,as here in the west,there is an movement called
Spiritualism,who have their own churches and ministers,they also have their
own creed,which very briefly put is this,they teach the reality of life after
death,the communication with departed loved ones,via the use of a medium,
and redemption open to all,a brotherhood of mankind!I know this is not what you mean,but I put this down as there may be others reading this,and possibly,misunderstanding you!
The west seems pretty ignorant,or is it arrogant,about eastern teachings as
to the nature of existance?

kind regards michael.

[r.p.bibra]

it is merely a name given to the science which relates to god/truth/reality. it is has nothing to do with any caste, creed,faith or dogma,least of all with any 'ism.ls.

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by r.p.bibra

it is merely a name given to the science which relates to god/truth/reality. it is has nothing to do with any caste, creed,faith or dogma,least of all with any 'ism.ls.

Thanks ls,I understand that,but considered that it may appear confusing
to some,hence the explanation!

take care my friend,
michael.

[dogmatorium]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick

What is truth,will we ever fully understand it.I think that to try and explain
truth,to talk about it,you are at once,caught in a lie.for truth is ever present
and forever now,therefore to explain truth,you are in effect,talking in past
tense,therefore a lie.
It occurs to me that,one has to become the embodiment of truth,to be truth
itself,then you will understand it.
It is said of old,that you can add to wisdom,but never to truth,for that
remains forever in the eternal now.

how then can I become truth?

regards,michael.

truly the truth cannot change but people do change it !

who's a lie here ?
see many versions of Bible and we don't know where should we pass !

why the Qur'an is the same one from the day that was sand ?

why do people touch and change the bible ?

so who can we understand the truth by changing the book ?
I mean telling the lies to ourselvs ?
too much our contravention does not take us to truth !

why the Quran does not change ?
do people think that humans are more claver than God and try to change things ?

even if we [muslims] try to change te Qur'an and make many versions sure we cannot do that because the letters are so differen from the simble lettert and there if you read one word it has many meanings [it has a codes]

I'd love you to see this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=quran+miracle

[mkirkpatrick]

[quote=dogmatorium]truly the truth cannot change but people do change it !

who's a lie here ?
see many versions of Bible and we don't know where should we pass !

why the Qur'an is the same one from the day that was sand ?

why do people touch and change the bible ?

so who can we understand the truth by changing the book ?
I mean telling the lies to ourselvs ?
too much our contravention does not take us to truth !

why the Quran does not change ?
do people think that humans are more claver than God and try to change things ?

even if we [muslims] try to change te Qur'an and make many versions sure we cannot do that because the letters are so differen from the simble lettert and there if you read one word it has many meanings [it has a codes]

I'd love you to see this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=quran+miracle[/quote
Dogmatorium,sis,I have had a brief look at the website,interesting,but i believe there was a similer code found in the christian bible as well?
So maybe they all have a code?I have my code,and each day i decypher a
little more about who and what I am?
kind regards michael.