What about Points? A Pointless Thread

[Mr. Nobody]

In our attempts to describe nature, we invented mathematics to help us idealize the world. Points, lines and surfaces are all description of lower dimensions. Since all existence , all reality happens in 3 spatial dimensions (that we are aware off) we have to assume that all mathematical models are only approximations, a description with limited accuracy of what we see.
I have come to the conclusion that mathematics is just language, words that describe something, but that math in itself has no existence like words do not have existence outside a text, outside a book, outside a spoken sentence.
What is a perfect surface? It does not exist, since smoothness has a limit. The microscope defines the absolute limit at the Heisenberg's uncertainty. What we thought as molecules, atoms, particles, tangible objects with spatial expansion gives way to points that cannot be defined definitively but dwell as description of something else. Points do not have existence, they are states of information, like a pointer points, a point says something about something, but in itself has no existence. A particle is such a point, it is information of something else. This something else is a difference within the environment, a positive within a negative, a negative within a positive, something distinguishable from the background, something different within sameness. But what does it describe? The double split experiment points (pun intended) in the right direction. Existence exists as fields of energy in interaction with each other. Our senses give these fields reality by defining it within our senses (as objects) and then convey their existence in accordance with our spoken language (mathematics).
What does the world look like, if you cannot feel, see nor hear your environment.....

[mkirkpatrick]

Thank you Mr Nobody for a interesting thread starter,I suppose one answer to the last
question you posed,would be,everthing would be exactly the same as it now,only you would be completely unaware of this fact.

Where can a pointless thread lead us?Some would no doubt argue that,if there is no
point to this,why bother?How many times have we said to somebody,who recounting
a long winded explanation "please get to the point"!

Or "what is your point!It would seem if you looked into this argument the point as you so
rightly suggested Mr Nobody,is that,this point represents a "firm" indicator of that which
is intangibly tangible?

An indicator of the way to follow,a sign saying,"this way to reality"!


regards michael.

[Guille]

Mr.Nobody,

I agree with you, but you are not the first one to think that. Mathematics is indeed only language. Points don't exist, for they are nothing. The representation of nothing. If we assume that points exist, then anything can be assumed to exist. 'If something does not exist, then nothing doesn't exist either.' wrote E.M. Cioran. Now, you can't reduce existence to fields of energy and have the intention of discussing physics. Also, math is a language only, but it is a language which allows us to proof, know, predict... So I wouldn't reduce it for just being a language (the older Wittgenstein wrote about this).

[Mr. Nobody]

As I see it, we have reduced the world to particles without really understanding what a particle is. I want to distill the fundamental entity of matter to what ist really is and what is is not.

[mkirkpatrick]

Interesting point you made there Mr Nobody,you want to know what the fundamental
particle of matter is,and what it is not!(Does not everyone?)
For me this is easy to answer,albeit controversial to some here on this forum,The particle
this fundamental "point" is the result of crystalliszation of an "idea" condencing down the
vibrational scale,thickening as in a "liquer like state" further slowing,and emerging into
what we call the continuum,the intention has motioned from the transcendant state
to emerge in the physical universe,and this is the direct result of focussed will.

What it is not is unintentional randomization of chaotic pointlessness???


regards michael.

[Mr. Nobody]

Mike, that is where we disagree. I don't see a point in anything, other than the human mind finding patterns. These patterns evolved as a response to inflation which causes an increase in disorder at cosmic scales but an increase of perceived order within local scales (gravity is the odd force that seems to increase entropy and order at the same time and one of the reason for the difficulty of a TOE). Entropy frictions (diffferences) are what appears to make reactive existence (live) possible
There is no intention in this universe, as the universal body seems to exist reasonless within infinity (between inflating periods) as opposed to happened once long time ago for a reason.

[mkirkpatrick]

Mike, that is where we disagree. I don't see a point in anything, other than the human mind finding patterns. These patterns evolved as a response to inflation which causes an increase in disorder at cosmic spatial scales but an increase of perceived order within local scales (gravity is the odd force that seems to increase entropy and order at the same time). Entropy frictions (diffferences) are what appears to make reactive existence (live) possible
There is no intention in this universe, as the universal body seems to exist reasonless within infinity (between inflating periods) as opposed to happened once long time ago for a reason.

Thats fine by me MrNobody we will have to agree,to disagree.


regards michael.

[Mr. Nobody]

When we see particles isn't it always on a screen? Is it not that the point represents information but is nothing itself. The particle/ point is description as it cannot be observed directly. The point/ particle in my view is where fundamental matter/ energy enters reality (through measurement) at the ground floor of the cosmos. The undisturbed and virgin state of matter however has to remain undetermined, described by a propabilty function. Were electrons confined to orbits like planets around the sun and were electrons solid objects of something with predetermined positions at all times, then interaction and evolution, the agent of change, the fundamental engine of time and reality would be impossible. Change is only possible if we have indeterminism built in at the fundamental level, time is only possible if we have a chance for change

[Mr. Nobody]

God does play with dice
and because of that he made it possible for us to evolve out of chaos, to exist, for matter to build a house of cards and for matter to probe the question of where it all came from and where it all will go

[mkirkpatrick]

Finding patterns reveal after a time a sign of intelligence,and highlight the point is a reference to pattern reading?

I know we can draw different conclusions from the patterns we see,but whatI have seen
of patterns and the synchronous way they link into one another,leads me to conclude
that there is a universal intelligence at work,a sort of master patterneer!


regardsmichael.