[harmonygirl]

David, maybe provoking arrogant reactions doesn't fly with the deep thinkers in this group. Maybe the journey is more fun if we just share our perceptions...

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by harmonygirl David, maybe provoking arrogant reactions doesn't fly with the deep thinkers in this group. Maybe the journey is more fun if we just share our perceptions...

I tend to concur,with that reply,sharing is about
exchange of ideas and to grow from that meeting of minds.

kind regards michael.

[flopflip]

Other.

To borrow the old reliable analogy of the "stream of life," what happens to a whirlpool after it "dies?"

The question, I hope you agree, is not especially meaningful: the whirlpool is something that exists as a convergence of certain conditions (materials and forces), and when the conditions no longer attain, the phenomenon does not persist (indeed the conditions are the phenomenon). So it is with all things, including "me." "I" appeared when certain conditions arose, and when the conditions change, "I" will no longer be.

Nothing happens to you after you die; death is simply the name we give to the disassembling of the conditions that constitute "you."

[harmonygirl]

Flipflop (Good name!), do you think we share anything with our sisters and brothers? Maybe otherness is an illusion (like the grove of trees that has a comom root system) and we are all part of the same thing? If that's the case when part of the grove dies, what happens to the energy? Or taking a recent example, if you could quantum jump all your physical parts to a different location, would the reassembled body still be you?

[flopflip]

girlharmony (I like your name, too!), we share not just anything with our brothers and sisters, but everything!

I think the whirlpool analogy (which I cribbed from Charlotte Beck) is useful here, because the whirlpool is clearly distinguishable as a phenomenon, yet also so clearly not anything other than the stream, itself. I'd say the hard part for most of us is accepting that the analogy actually works--that is, we don't usually care to accept how ephemeral the phenomenon called "me" really is.

And analogies take you only so far. I think it's safe to say the whirlpool probably is not stoned out of it's head on being a whirlpool, whereas each of us is generally pretty heavily stoned on being "me." In other words, the whirlpool doesn't imagine itself disconnected somehow from the stream, alone and fearful: "Gah! I need to protect myself from all this water around me!"

Of course, if it did imagine such a whirlpool self, but then looked very carefully, it would eventually recognize that it had never been anything but stream, and the sense of isolation and fear would vanish.

[harmonygirl]

I think the whirlpool is a better analogy than I thought at first, but I have 2 issues: 1. Do whirlpools ever vibe on themselves (if not, how can they overcome?) 2. If it was able to overcome the painful self-consciousness (and delusions of grandeur) that we have, it's still a stream. Is it possible it could get we are all? (and not in a Borg sense!)

[flopflip]

I'd love it if you'd rephrase the first question; I'd like more confidence that I definitely understand your intended meaning before I respond.

As for the second question, I think I know what you mean, and the thing to note about the analogy is that there is nothing but stream. The stream is everything there is. In the scenario in which our confused little whirlpool wakes up, when he realizes that he is nothing other than stream, it isn't a stream, it's the stream.

[harmonygirl]

Hmmm....I guess I was thinking that there must first be awareness of the self to truly appreciate the triumph of all. If so, is a whirlpool aware of it's own separation? If not, knowledge of the all is default. I guess I was also thinking that awareness of separation must preceed dying. If not, it's just diffusion without change. Which I don't think is the case...
Oh, I get the second point.

[flopflip]

Well, I may have muddled the issue, inadvertently.

Since we commonly experience the sense of separation and the stong sense of self-identity you talked about, the metaphor is really only useful to express that which we don't generally acknowlege, namely that we are no more separate from the rest of the universe than a whirlpool is from the stream. The image does not, alas, lend itself to illustrating the struggle of the real life person to understand their relationship with the whole, except via strained anthropomorphic extension. Whirlpools just don't seem inclined to greet their own disintegration with terror.

[pagan3142]

when you are gone you are gone . So make the best of it now