How Old is the Universe

[Guille]

No, you misread that. I said "for arguments sake" and used "is" between "'s to make clear that it's only to make something clear. I wanted to show that "everything before the big bang" (elastic space which is stretching at one "point" so much that it rips) is the cause of "everything after the big bang" (space + vacuumspace (which is created by that ripping)) and "nothing" is non-existent and therefor of course isn't the cause of "everything after the big bang" and therefor everything always existed. Before the big bang, during and after. Eternal.

The point I'm making is independent of that difference. Science can no longer ask for a place of idol, of heavens. I'm not saying it is to dissapear, but it must change of position. If science tries to keep in the discussion of absolutes, of fundamentals, it will never reach reality. It must accept Nietzsche's sentence "There are no facts, only intepretations". In some sort, the QMers agree, but still the belief in string theory proofs physicists are too ignorant. You cannot talk about everything, nothing something, anything... These are just terms in our language, of our propositions, which do not exist out of it. They are good to be used in philosophy, and in literature, cause they both have assumed their places after idols. There are two ways of taking this change, you either don't accept it and keep the 'old ways' even inside a new world (Which as absurd, and what religion did when it lost it's idol place), or accept the new position as a better way of comming across culture, society and humanity in general.

[subversion]

Sub;
Denying facts does not make a person right Sub, it just keeps him ignorant and naive. Learn the facts and you will not have so much trouble forming good opinions.
BTW: Where's your TOE.

You don't know the facts dleviwing, otherwise you could tell me where the universe came from and where it is going. Untill you can tell me that, you can't prove that energy is conserved, because you can't see where it's going, or where it came from. And I'll post the TOE, fair and square, but if I'm right about it then you have to admit it and not act childish or jealous by trying to deny it, and you've also got to be my friend. Agreed? As soon as you say you agree, I'll put the theory on the table. Hopefully you will agree because I am ready.

[dleviwing]

Sub;
Post your TOE or get off ToeQuest. You do not have the honesty, integrity, and trustworthiness to be my friend and until you can meet these requirements, I cannot agree to be yours. Neither do you have the intellect to formulate a TOE.

[Omni]

You cannot talk about everything, nothing something, anything... These are just terms in our language, of our propositions, which do not exist out of it.

I totally disagree. Everything does exist and what the word means is clear. Nothing doesn't exist and that's the meaning of the word. Something is a part of everything and I don't see trouble in understanding that.

[dleviwing]

When the standard model states that there was NOTHING before the big bang event, it infers that there was not even a place for existence or the universe to reside in. In this definition, NOTHING is an ABSOLUTE. If you interpret "THING" to mean a physical entity only, then nothing simply means an empty place.

Each debater should state their views before entering the endless philosophical debate of language.

[subversion]

Sub;
Post your TOE or get off ToeQuest. You do not have the honesty, integrity, and trustworthiness to be my friend and until you can meet these requirements, I cannot agree to be yours. Neither do you have the intellect to formulate a TOE.

Post your TOE or get off ToeQuest. I have offered to be your friend. I am honest, I have integrity, and I am trustworthy, but only if you give me a chance. It is you who does not see this. It is you who refuses to be my friend. Everybody else trusts in eachother. It is only you who does not want to give me a chance. How do you know that I'm too stupid to have realized the TOE? That just shows that you are making a big assumption. Well it's not just an assumption, dleviwing, it's a mistake. Do you really want to make that mistake? Think about it, and then open your mind to the freedom outdoors. You have no idea if I'm right or I'm wrong, right, so why do you automatically assume that I'm wrong? Why are you so negative towards others? Why shall I show you everything if you are starting with the assumption that I must be an idiot? That is the wrong assumption to make about somebody dleviwing and I am dissapointed in you, especially since you are an elder and should be setting a positive example for those younger than you. You're always talking about how mature you are, but isn't boasting maturity in itself kind of an immature thing to do, especially when you're so discouraging to your fellow brothers?

So come on, be honest. There must be doubt in your mind as to whether I'm a liar or not. You must be wondering, as is everyone. The only way you're going to find out is if you give me the benefit of the doubt, be my friend. Otherwise you are working against the flow, and being hateful minded, and while some may say I should be banned for claiming I know the TOE and not speaking it, I say you should be banned for making me not want to tell you the TOE. So who is really at fault here? The one who wants to help, or the one who wants to hinder?

I entreat you once more dleviwing, from the bottom of my heart, be my friend. I apologize for anything that I might have done. I never said I was completely perfect. Be my friend, it can only be a good thing. What have you got to lose? Now think of what you could stand to gain! Doesn't everybody agree that dleviwing should be my friend? Come on everybody, back me up here, I'm trying as hard as I can but everybody is just standing by in silence. Robert? Michelle? Guille? Mkirkpatrick? Harmony? Lloyd? Antonio? Baudrunner? David Maes? Mr. Nobody? Zeroca? Mohan? HBD? Tiny Tree? Mike 5? davidgow? Dustin? SinJin? Force5? Omni? Tornado_Sun? Happy the Stripper? Quanta 7? undef? Volantis? Socratus? david44? chazzysaw? planet bob? simple kid? and everybody else who cares about the quest. Don't ya'll agree that me and dleviwing need to forget our differences and see what eachother has to offer? Will somebody who cares besides me please speak their mind? I apologize for making dleviwing mad at me in the first place, but now we've got to turn this situation around because it is absolutely killing us. I can't believe it got to be like this. It must be all my fault! I'll take responsibility for everything.

-sub

[Guille]

I totally disagree. Everything does exist and what the word means is clear. Nothing doesn't exist and that's the meaning of the word. Something is a part of everything and I don't see trouble in understanding that.

This logic has taken humanity to most if it's atrocities. For example, it is the main statement of nationalism (whether communist or fascist) in the form of "You as individual are nothing, all you are is part of the whole, of the nation, of the race, of the society..." Cuase you say something is part of everything, and that definition leads also to religions; these say "you are a soul which is to have an eternal life in heaven or hell" and thus, it makes people think that this life is nothing, cause the important thing is afterwords, as part of god (or satan). There much more examples, but it is too tiering trying to make you rationalize if you are going to stay on your un-backgrounded and fallacial believes.

[dleviwing]

Sub;
You have yet to show us what you have to offer. Keeping your word is important to integrity.

[baudrunner]

Sub,

After you've made your confession you should read this article written by a mature and knowledgeable fellow who likes to write about science and offers the cutting edge on a subject which actually happens to be the same as this thread. What a conicidence!

Okay, I don't necessarily agree with everything it says, I mean, imageine, a photon streaking across the Universe for 13.69463 billion years, I mean, really! Photons don't even exist, for crying out loud. But, what the hey, so long as the gist of it sinks in.

I am a mature, and I would like to think clever (I have a gold seal on one of my diplomas) fellow too who also likes to think and write about science, only I don't get paid for it. And as to whether I am on the cutting edge, well, just ask me! In the case of my soundbox contribution concerning the age of the Universe, I guess I kind of overextended myself, chalk it up to overwork, laziness, whatever but it turns out that the quiz answer was right. Oh, well. We could still say the Universe is fifteen billion years old, I mean, who cares? Just so long as it is over a hundred and fifty billion years in diameter! That's the really awesome fact that sets you down and makes you think.

On the subject of friendship, you haven't exactly been courting Dave's affections lately, sub.

[Omni]

@<<<GUILLE>>>: No. I was working on a response, but no, I have my limits and this is one of them. Nonsense I won't respond to.