[mkirkpatrick]

Zeroca,you have exceeded yourself yet again,very interesting stuff,do you think that
the eye of an average person,could be coaxed into seeing into the etheric realm? And
are we not evolving in our seeing abilities for this to happen more frequently in the near
future!Jut a thought of mine?

kindregardsmichael.

[zeroca]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick Do you think that the eye of an average person, could be coaxed into seeing into the etheric realm? And are we not evolving in our seeing abilities for this to happen more frequently in the near future?

Michael, let’s face the truth directly!
The material, collected by me is well-known by each first-year student of med. Institute. I always try to make conclusions by existing obvious information as simply as can, but anyway have to complicate matters. But it doesn’t matter: At the end I’ll try to systematize all material briefly, if I manage…
I can not realy answer your question above, I can't say anything definitely…
Let’s conduct a little test (recalling past simplest experience of all of us about remaining trace within field of vision after watching the Sun, or light bulb, or welding, i.e. electric arc with subsequently closed eyes); As the impression of the Sun is too strong and powerful, so I prefer the test with bulb:
When watching the switched-on bulb, open the eyes and close them quickly again several times, concentrating on switched-on bulb, or switch it on/off several times in turn (better in the dark room); finally concentrate on the visual perception within field of your vision with closed eyes (concentrate on the perception, left as a trace) allowing some period of time to pass after eyes' closing.
The first, you can notice after final closing of eyes, is that the trace of bulb, i.e. impression of it is lighter, then background, which is darker. After a while (keeping eyes closed) impression of bulb becomes darker to compare with background of impression, i.e.
Trace impression becomes inverted!
After eliminating the trace completely within field of vision of closed eye you can repeat the test.
I wonder, with which particular part of our visual system we perceive mentioned inversion? As eyes are closed (or rather the bulb as light source, i.e. as stimulant, is turned off), retina isn’t irritated by external stimulant! So trace impression (even if it’s the result of direct changing of condition of cells of retina) is perceived by either occipital parts of brain, or “higher” cortical systems.
I’ll try to seek existing valuable explanations, and if I can’t find them, I’ll have to offer my humble version.

Anyway, my early belief is that “flashing light reversal” is somehow connected with time, that’s needed for passing of irritation from retina up to higher perceptive cortical centers of brain together with listed physiological mechanisms.

[zeroca]

Some material about central vision:
As we mentioned, the central vision is conducted by yellow spot and its central part - optic fovea - a pit with a diameter of about 0.2 mm, which presents gathering of maximal quantity of cone cells. At the distance of only 10 degrees from optic fovea acuteness is one/fifth part of central vision.
Practically it’s very important for oculists to measure acuteness of vision. Under the acuteness the ability of eye to distinguish two separate bright points, placed close to, or maximally distant to each-other is meant. That’s to say that acuteness of central vision comes to definition of minimal distance between two bright points, when these points are visible (perceptive) as separate two.
If before eye, at some definite distance from it, two bright points a & b are placed, in order to receive image on the retina obligatory is that light beams passed through optical medium of eye, through the focal point of k up to retina. The points a’ and b’ are images of the points a & b on the retina. The angle akb=a’kb’ and is defined as angle of vision.
According to the great amount of research, normal eye of human can perceive two different irritations as separately two ones, when they are disposed at the angle of 1' and this equals as linear measurement of 0.004 mm between images, i.e. two points are perceived as separate ones, when the distance between their images on the retina is 0.004 mm. This value has its ground in anatomical elements of retina within yellow spot: the cell of pigment epithelium with a few neuroelements is independent light-receiving unit. If two images of both bright points are received in the same neuroelement, or neighboring two ones, then they merge into one.
If the images of bright points are received on two neighboring neuroelements, then the sensation of short line is perceived, as both irritations will interflow together and give one sensation. If images of points a & b on the retina are received on the neuroelements, separated by not irritated single one between them, eye will perceive two points separately.
Therefore, in order to perceive two different points as separate two, the distance between images of these points on the retina must be not less than diameter of one single neuroelement (the size of which in humans equals to 0.004mm, or 1' angle of vision).

[zeroca]

Each eye presents itself independent organ (from physiological point of view) for perception of form (central vision) and orientation in 3D space (field of vision). But ability of human’s visual analyzer to define the third dimension – stereoscopy of surrounding objects, is conducted by simultaneous vision with both eyes (binocular vision). I will not stop analyzing binocular vision in detail, only choose essential for me matters.
Apart from the acuteness of vision, correct associative movement of eyeballs towards the fixed object is needed: parallel position of axes of vision of both eyes when looking along, and convergence (convergence is the simultaneous inward movement of both eyes toward each other, usually in an effort to maintain single binocular vision when viewing an object) - when looking at close objects. The central nervous system is the main regulator of muscular balance in order to coincide, join two separate images of both eyes (placed in the central fovea of retina).
Single image (of surveyed by both eyes object) is perceived when images fell on identical – corresponding parts of retina of both eyes. Then received image will be projected on corresponding zones of occipital zones of cortex and the images from both eyes will be perceived as one, i.e. correctly. (At the same time I’d like to emphasize that, if each point of outer object is perceived as separate feeling on retina, one irritation, conducted to cortical parts from retina is perceived as well by separate neuron of cortical zone!)
Corresponding zones of retina in the first place are the central foveal pits of yellow spots of both eyes and besides them all points, in both eyes situated on similar meridians and at the same distance from central pits.
The best method to imagine the corresponding – identical points of retina of both eyes is - eyes, moved to the central point of forehead and placed as if one eye of Cyclop: the internal part of right eye is coincided with lateral part of left eye, and the lateral part of right eye - with internal (medial) part of left eye. Covering each-other the parts of retinas of both eyes are identical, of corresponding points.

1. Receiving the image on identical parts of retinas of both eyes:



Dissimilar, or non-identical points of both eyes are either both internal or both lateral – external parts of eyes (they are disparate points). The images from them are conducted to separate points of cerebral cortex, i.e. are projected in different points of 3D space, i.e. are perceived as separate points and doubling arises.
The most important, the binocular vision gives to human, is stereoscopic vision – to see outer world in 3 dimensions.
The basis for stereoscopic vision, and also for determination of distance, is physiological doubling. The perception of third dimension, of depth, of defining distance is result of placing of images on dissimilar, non-identical points of retina, disposed symmetrically towards the yellow points and this gives physiological doubling vision. Fixed point O gives its image on the yellow points – ff of both eyes. If some object G is placed farther from fixed point O, then image of this point is placed medially from yellow points of both eyes (in disparate points – gg) and are projected in space as two separate, different objects - g1g1: right-side with right eye and left-side with the left eye from the objects, disposed farther from fixed point. Result is direct, or uncrossed doubling.
The object u, placed nearer to the eyes from the fixed point O gives its image on temporal parts of retina for both eyes (u and u) and are projected in space as two separate objects (u1u1 – crossed physiological doubling).
The images of objects, placed beyond the fixed point aren’t included in relief in the visional image, as they are placed on the peripheral parts of retina, but at the same time these doubling images serve as reference point for determination of position of object in 3D space. These doubling images serve as reference point for determination of objects in 3D space. This doubling isn’t perceived and it doesn’t interfere with vision. Neutralization and interpretation of physiological doubling, forming of the whole amount of “visual directness” as well, happens in cerebral cortex. Physiological doubling is inhibited, as if ignored, suppressed. As it doesn’t interfere with vision, so is called physiological.
Fix your vision on a tip of your finger, distant from your eyes from 30 cm. At first place a pen between your eyes and your finger, then farther of finger (not taking away your central vision from the tip of finger, simultaneously watching the pen with your peripheral vision.) and you’ll perceive physiological doubling by your peripheral vision, i.e. by your field of vision.

2. Conditions for arising of physiological doubling:

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by zeroca Each eye presents itself independent organ (from physiological point of view) for perception of form (central vision) and orientation in 3D space (field of vision). But ability of human’s visual analyzer to define the third dimension – stereoscopy of surrounding objects, is conducted by simultaneous vision with both eyes (binocular vision). I will not stop analyzing binocular vision in detail, only choose essential for me matters. Apart from the acuteness of vision, correct associative movement of eyeballs towards the fixed object is needed: parallel position of axes of vision of both eyes when looking along, and convergence (convergence is the simultaneous inward movement of both eyes toward each other, usually in an effort to maintain single binocular vision when viewing an object) - when looking at close objects. The central nervous system is the main regulator of muscular balance in order to coincide, join two separate images of both eyes (placed in the central fovea of retina). Single image (of surveyed by both eyes object) is perceived when images fell on identical – corresponding parts of retina of both eyes. Then received image will be projected on corresponding zones of occipital zones of cortex and the images from both eyes will be perceived as one, i.e. correctly. (At the same time I’d like to emphasize that, if each point of outer object is perceived as separate feeling on retina, one irritation, conducted to cortical parts from retina is perceived as well by separate neuron of cortical zone!) Corresponding zones of retina in the first place are the central foveal pits of yellow spots of both eyes and besides them all points, in both eyes situated on similar meridians and at the same distance from central pits. The best method to imagine the corresponding – identical points of retina of both eyes is - eyes, moved to the central point of forehead and placed as if one eye of Cyclop: the internal part of right eye is coincided with lateral part of left eye, and the lateral part of right eye - with internal (medial) part of left eye. Covering each-other the parts of retinas of both eyes are identical, of corresponding points. 1. Receiving the image on identical parts of retinas of both eyes: Dissimilar, or non-identical points of both eyes are either both internal or both lateral – external parts of eyes (they are disparate points). The images from them are conducted to separate points of cerebral cortex, i.e. are projected in different points of 3D space, i.e. are perceived as separate points and doubling arises. The most important, the binocular vision gives to human, is stereoscopic vision – to see outer world in 3 dimensions. The basis for stereoscopic vision, and also for determination of distance, is physiological doubling. The perception of third dimension, of depth, of defining distance is result of placing of images on dissimilar, non-identical points of retina, disposed symmetrically towards the yellow points and this gives physiological doubling vision. Fixed point O gives its image on the yellow points – ff of both eyes. If some object G is placed farther from fixed point O, then image of this point is placed medially from yellow points of both eyes (in disparate points – gg) and are projected in space as two separate, different objects - g1g1: right-side with right eye and left-side with the left eye from the objects, disposed farther from fixed point. Result is direct, or uncrossed doubling. The object u, placed nearer to the eyes from the fixed point O gives its image on temporal parts of retina for both eyes (u and u) and are projected in space as two separate objects (u1u1 – crossed physiological doubling). The images of objects, placed beyond the fixed point aren’t included in relief in the visional image, as they are placed on the peripheral parts of retina, but at the same time these doubling images serve as reference point for determination of position of object in 3D space. These doubling images serve as reference point for determination of objects in 3D space. This doubling isn’t perceived and it doesn’t interfere with vision. Neutralization and interpretation of physiological doubling, forming of the whole amount of “visual directness” as well, happens in cerebral cortex. Physiological doubling is inhibited, as if ignored, suppressed. As it doesn’t interfere with vision, so is called physiological. Fix your vision on a tip of your finger, distant from your eyes from 30 cm. At first place a pen between your eyes and your finger, then farther of finger (not taking away your central vision from the tip of finger, simultaneously watching the pen with your peripheral vision.) and you’ll perceive physiological doubling by your peripheral vision, i.e. by your field of vision. 2. Conditions for arising of physiological doubling:

Zeroca, you seem to have a deep knowledge with regard to eye.
Kind regards, Michael.

[zeroca]

The most part of this knowledge has been acquired recently. My spouse (she’s a physician-reanimatologist) supplied me with the book “the diseases of eye”; the author is Russian oculist – Arkhangelsky, V. N. (published in 1969 y, for students of med. Inst.), but, apart from diseases, I found some anatomical and physiological parts professionally explained for students in it. Despite Georgia’s and Russia’s present rivalry attitude, I must give Russian scientists their due: they mostly are precise, deep, and distinguished, and one can grasp the essence by reading them quickly. I also searched for Wikipedia and found very interesting material about illusions (great part without explanations) there. So, some anatomical and physiological behavior of eye as organ, would be useful for us in future discussions about illusions and future explanations for them.
And I’ve been concentrating on the eye for this three weeks and got cleared some aspects for me, but couldn’t solve so far the reason, why visual system+brain of human perceives “flashing light reversal” the way, it does. I’ve been busy with eye so hard, that even couldn’t end space elimination and correction in the section I’m assigned to moderate.

By the way, I’d like to rate this thread as excellent and please bear in mind that all this rating belongs to the first post, i.e. to Dustin’s starting post of this thread and not to all rest posts of this thread, including mine!

So, let’s summarize the themes of previous two posts:
The physiological doubling is of two sorts and there are two sides of one test to check it:
The test for it:
-Crossed physiological doubling:
---Place your finger at the distance of approximately 30 cm before your eyes and concentrate on the tip of it. Then place the pen nearer to eyes from your finger vertically (between your eyes and finger) and watch it with your peripheral vision (with field of vision), not taking your central vision away from the tip of finger. Then close/open right! eye several times:
You see, that left figure of doubling image is appearing/disappearing, i.e. doubling is crossed. (consult the scheme #2 in previous post).
-Uncrossed physiological doubling:
---Place your finger at the distance of approximately 30 cm before your eyes and concentrate on the tip of it. Then place the pen farther from your finger and watch it with your peripheral, or field of vision, not taking your central vision away from the tip of finger. Then close/open right! eye several times:
You see, that right figure of doubling image is appearing/disappearing, i.e. doubling is uncrossed.

At the same time I’d like to clear one more subject – about motion (My own conclusions):
I’d like to divide motion, which takes place within whole field of vision into two parts:
1. When scenario, background actually is unmoving and you are concentrating on moving object with your central vision (let’s say, you’re sitting in the room and watching flying fly).
--------In this case you are watching the background with your peripheral vision, i.e. to say figuratively, doubling background is moving in your peripheral part of vision, but your central vision is fixed on moving fly.
2. When scenario, background actually is unmoving and you are concentrating on fixed object with your central vision (let’s say, you’re sitting in the room and watching the nail on the wall with your central vision, and are simultaneously watching flying fly with your peripheral vision).
--------In this case you are watching the background with your central vision, i.e. fixed part of background – the nail is in your central vision, doubling background – the room is unmoving and doubling image of fly is moving in your peripheral vision.
3. When scenario, background actually is moving and you are concentrating on either fixed or moving object with your central vision (let’s say, you’re sitting in moving car and are watching flying within fly with your central vision, simultaneously watching with your peripheral vision unmoving inner part of car and moving street), or you’re sitting in the car and watching some “unmoving” (from your frame of reference) part of car, let’s say, tape recorder with your central vision, simultaneously watching flying within car fly and actually moving background of car (the street) with your peripheral vision.
--------This variant comes to the second variant…
I.e. all scenario of watching, i.e. the whole field of vision can be divided into two parts:
The part, which falls on central vision (this part can be actually moving from frame of reference of eyes [your eyes are moving as well) or actually stopped (your eyes are stopped]),
The part, which falls on peripheral vision (this part as well consists of actually moving and unmoving parts [and is perceived by your peripheral vision differently: according to action your eyes conduct]).

[zeroca]

Anyway, it's interesting what Dustin saw when looking at Christmas light?
I think it was something like this:



But not actually like this:

[zeroca]

Until considering visual cortical zones and perceptive cortical visual functions, I’d like to mention, that in my opinion, any image, fallen on and then perceived by visual system (from retina up to occipital cortical stages) is result of influence of discrete light (eliminated or reflected from outer object), i.e. light influences on visual system in discrete form. Let’s analyze following observation:
After switching the light in the dark room all objects appear immediately, but they disappear at once with switching off the light, i.e. if permanent influence of light on visual system is stopped, then perception by vision also is stopped, i.e. for permanent visual perception of outer world every-instant influence of light on the retina is needed, but to the question: influence – discreet or indiscreet? I’d definitely answer, that discreet.
(Even I believe that any kind of motion in the universe and even whole motion of universe is consecutive succession of all “stopped”, instantaneous phases, but this is another theme).
But because of speed of light eye can’t perceive this discrete influence of light on the retina, i.e. the influence of each phase separately, so it perceives a permanent unmoved image of outer object. To say otherwise, if any animation, film, or motion is succession, consecutive amount of different phases, then stopped image is consecution of the same amount of phases – but of phases of the same picture. So when watching unmoved scenario, one should bear in mind that this perceived unmoved image is every-instant influence of the same image on the visual system.
Image of unmoved background is perceived as indiscreet picture by cortex, but any kind of change in this picture (i.e. motion, which is perceived in indiscreet, “smooth” form) presents quick consecutive amount of phases, and visual system isn’t able to perceive all phases!
Considered by us the example above, when lagging L1 equaled to L (post # 14 of this thread) is obvious proof of that. Eye can’t perceive motion (despite its actual taking place) until one sector of the wheel isn’t colored differently.

As I mentioned above, each point of outward object makes separate feeling (i.e. separate irritation) within elements of retina, and impulse of irritation, sent from this element of retina to occipital visual cortical center, reaches separate element of cortex as if the contours of whole outer object were copied to the occipital cortex, and as we said, each consecutive phase is overlapping on previous one at some intervals of time, and this fragmentation isn’t perceived by eye, if the speed of consecution is high!
As a conclusion I’d like to say that until existing on somatic occipital cortex image doesn’t change its place, i.e. until other parts of occipital cortex aren’t irritated, the perception of motion doesn’t take place.
Let’s recall a little about films with moving trains, the wheels of which are visible within pictures (from the remnants of these films the animations of wheels above were constructed) Why eye perceives spinning of wheel of train in two different directions? One can’t observe this event in real life.
When camera is fixed on a wheel, i.e. wheel is fixed within the frame of film picture (i.e. wheel is spinning, but not moving on the screen, i.e. it remains in the same place of screen), and perceived by eye motion of train is based on moving to opposite direction background (look at animation below), then eye will perceive it as considered above (post # 13 – spinning wheels with fixed centers).

But if in the same occasion the camera is fixed on a background (which is unmoved within film picture), but train is moving within picture, then turning of wheels will be perceived as in reality (look at animation below). The centers of wheels are not fixed, but are moving along with simultaneous turning. We can’t watch mentioned above phenomenon of oppositely moving spokes.

Anyway, the main question: why brain perceives flashing light reversal the way it does remains unanswered yet.

[baudrunner]

After switching the light in the dark room all objects appear immediately, but they disappear at once with switching off the light, i.e. if permanent influence of light on visual system is stopped, then perception by vision also is stopped, i.e. for permanent visual perception of outer world every-instant influence of light on the retina is needed, but to the question: influence – discreet or indiscreet? I’d definitely answer, that discreet.

This appears to contradict your earlier comments about persistence of images after you close your eyes. If you are in a dark room and turn on the light and then stare at a bright object and then turn off the light you will have persistence of the image in the retina, similar to staring at your computer screen then closing your eyes. You will see a residual image. The thing about keeping your eyes open when you turn off the light is that you are still mentally taking in your entire environment. When you close your eyes to conduct the experiment in a lighted room, you are mentally focussing on a specific object.

The reason this residual persistence of vision happens is related to the way that the neurons connected to your retina process images. Your retinal receptor cells are molecular in nature and the molecules that make up the cones and rods have receptor sites, which is how the neuron communicates via its axons to the dendrites of neighboring neurons across the synaptic cleft.

It turns out that a neuron's receptor sites can grow tired. If they are overstimulated, they expel the blockers and withdraw into the neuron body, actually the dendritic portion of the neuron body, to regenerate. So we can conclude that there is a time element associated with the transfer of information between neurons since they require biomolecular activity, not pure electricity, in conducting their tasks. When we close our eyes, the effect of the gross stimulation of the retinal receptors is temporarily maintained because the information is not renewed on a continual basis as it is when we have our eyes opened, when the receptors are constantly being refreshed. This is another manifestation of hysteresis, which can be defined as the inductive process that results in the existence of reality, effected right down to the level of the smallest entity in nature, the string. In effect, the retinal receptors are momentarily stimulating each other, and a very rough facsimile of the image information is being processed.

Now to the flashing light reversal. The spokes of the wheels of a wagon, or even those new fad spinning wheel covers on today's pimped out cars, can be observed to turn in the reverse direction at a speed which appears to have no relationship to the forward speed of the vehicle, which in the case of the wheel covers can even be standing still. It is easy to explain when viewed on a movie reel or television show, because of the limited number of frames that comprise the image on the screen, about thirty frames per second, just a little too fast for the eye to make out. The image appears to be continuous as in real life. But wait, is the image really continuous in real life? What about the nature of energy conservation in the body? Is there a process whereby the life force that runs through the body is actually an oscillating component, turning on and off faster than we can notice, but slow enough to conserve energy?

We have to remember that everything occurs in waves, that light is propagated in waves, that matter is composed of wavicles, that our heart beat can be observed on a monitor to exist as a waveform, and so on. So yes, I would conclude that if the proper research were conducted, we would find that the eye's retinal receptors have a refresh rate, and that the information that they receive cannot possibly be processed on a continual basis because of the amount of visual information that needs to be processed by the visual cortex, and that whereas this information is transmitted through the optical nervous system more or less in a linear, sequential manner, the information is received by the eye in a parallel, parallel manner. The biomolecular axon-dendrite communication is one that requires time, however efficient the system may be at that level, and it is this requirement for time that dictates that visual information must be received at a constant rate that requires refreshing the visual receptors fast enough for the mind to perceive continuity, but slow enough for the cortex to physically process the information and to keep the receptor sites from getting tired too fast.

Test have shown that images can be passed by the visual system without being detected if they are flashed by quick enough. It is believed that the image is received subconsciously, but in reality the refreshing of retinal receptors is not accomplished as it is in the tv set, all at once, but rather in such a way that a small fraction of receptors will still detect the image while the others are in some stage of the refresh process. But we will consciously ignore the image because not all of the receptors have the time to receive and send image information for processing when it flashes by that fast.

By the way, the image reversal phenomenon is not always observed in the reverse direction, sometimes it is forward. But it is always in slow motion, because our eye is actually taking pictures similar to the way a movie camera takes pictures and we see repeating images overlapping, images like the spokes of a wheel, at a rate which is commensurate with the average refresh rate of all the retinal receptors.

More information about receptor site regeneration can be found at the website dancesafe.com if you are interested in learning what the drug ecstacy does to your brain. Review the slide show.