Maslow's hierarchy of psychosocial needs

[SteveA]

So, would the sex trade fall under 'capitalism' or 'free trade'?

What role, if any, should the government have in regard to 'the oldest profession in the world'?



http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...al-court-rules

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/...on-law028.html 1537 comments have been posted on this story.

If we look at private property rights I'd say ones body and labor are most definitely owned by oneself with the right and associated consequences of controlling this "property" LOL

If there's no law against sex, then I can't see why an exchange associated with it should be illegal either if all the parties are voluntary. We could similarly ask if an evening of wining and dining in hopes of more is "soliciting".

On the other hand, I can understand people feeling uncomfortable by soliciting in public, but it's one of those issues that, similar to my comments above, is best resolved on smaller scales, such as cities or local communities than on large scales.

For example, maybe some people in a small town would oppose this profession, but they shouldn't consider their views to be applicable elsewhere and Ontario seems plenty large enough to be able to support more than one-type-of-folk in this respect.

One complaint might be regarding sexually transmitted diseases and a concern regarding a spread of this, but then again we could ask to what extent someone has a right to expect other people to lower their risk of having an STD? I don't believe people should have a right to expect others to be in any specific form of health (if someone wants to eat poorly or sit around with a drink and watch cable or smoke etc., there seems no claim to harm done to anyone else by this. Yes, maybe a Gross National Product might suffer (in the short term, though I think in the long run it's actually better off, not that this should be a justification), but were we meant to be slaves to the state).

Obviously we could try to encourage others in various ways via education or incentives, but that's different than using police to restrict others.

That's how I see it at least.

P.S. To be entirely honest, personally I don't think this in a discrete manner is really a problem, but I do admit that I wouldn't particularly enjoy seeing overbearing "salespitches", but that could even be true to an extent of someone trying to sell something else in a public area. It seems less of an issue in a more private environment though (again, that's just how I see it personally - I still wouldn't support a statewide law, for example, though I could understand a city passing a law like that. Ideally things would be unanimous, but realistically that's a high bar to set and I guess in some ways I'd really just like to see people looking at the idea of government a bit differently and actually there could be entirely different ways to effectively do the same via voluntary means if people gave it some consideration, and then we could remove a lot of government entities along with the overhead and general conflict - the issues remain, but they have ways of better being resolved via voluntary and private mechanisms and agreements, similar to living in an area with homeowners agreements).

Also, for me personally, public nudity doesn't even bother me really, but I admit that I wouldn't want my family living in an area like that.

[Graybeard]

Also, for me personally, public nudity doesn't even bother me really, but I admit that I wouldn't want my family living in an area like that.

Brothels are legal in Australia ... at least in Queensland .... but they must operate from an industrial area.

cool bananas ... greg

[SteveA]

Brothels are legal in Australia ... at least in Queensland .... but they must operate from an industrial area.

cool bananas ... greg

Seems like a decent semi-local resolution as it appears to more directly address the issues. It might be better if it was still more local in scope, such as independently done by counties or something, but the manner of handling it seems more reasonable in addressing the main issue which appears to largely be soliciting business in public areas.

It's definitely better than a sweeping one-sided decision on a larger scale and in that sense seems like a preferrable manner of handling it and that's a direction that seems good to pursue. More directly target the actual issues involved and reduce the scope of laws to allow greater freedom and reduce the governmental burden. Areas or people who prefer more laws should similarly be willing to pay for the costs associated with them and be more directly responsible for enforcing them. In that way, it can be better seen the results of various ideas (and I believe it will become obvious that highly controlling or socialized systems are rather much doomed unless they've really got a good group of people who're not simply trying to milk each other, which seems to happen too often. Also, with some diversity, areas that might prefer a highly restrictive social environment would have a greater ability to do that locally and people with different values would likely over time move elsewhere and you should a bit greater contrast in local communities, which I believe actually reduces friction - instead of having two areas fighting over a single set of laws, a segregation can occur over time and it's easier to have both/all sides be "winners" with less friction and it's easier to see how some ideas actually pan out - when it's done on a large scale, problems can occur for everyone and few people recognize why costs go up or employment drops etc. and they just blame "the economy" when it arises from policies and social views etc. that lower the quality of life for everyone and the next generation won't have the hindsight to understand what happened - that's what worries me about the way things are going now. I believe people will have to relearn what was simple common sense 50-100 years ago but has been replaced with destructive political/social ideologies that incapacitate people and leave them not understanding how to even balance a bank account and actually rewarding via. subsidizing those who don't).

[labelwench]

Brothels are legal in Australia ... at least in Queensland .... but they must operate from an industrial area.

cool bananas ... greg

I still remember walking along the sidewalks of Ottawa with my husband and in-laws on our way to a new establishment that was a 'must see' during our short visit. We were 'well turned out' as there was a dress code at the establishment.

There was a trio of rather attractive ladies just rather standing about as we neared our destination.

'My, her coat is far nicer than mine', remarked my mother-in-law in observation.

Her son leaned close and quietly replied, 'Mom, those are hookers'.

'Oh, my......' the reply.

My In-laws were 'valley folk' and going to church every Sunday was a fact of their life, and a custom which I observed out of respect while a guest under their roof.

Changes to Canada's Prostitution Law have certainly set the stage for some debate in our country and I am curious as to the final outcome.

Take for example, our liberal law regarding medical marijuana, which is legal with a prescription yet there is nowhere legal to purchase the commodity.

I suppose this means you may take up cultivation of three plants from your deathbed.

My point being that when laws are in conflict with one another or are unenforceable or incapable of equal application, perhaps we should not have them.

[labelwench]

A statistical analysis of inter-net searches reveals that the number related to sex and topics relating to sex is extremely high.

That really shouldn't come as a surprise.

Sex is a reproductive function, the first priority of life being to beget the next generation.

In our species and a few others, sex is a bonding function that strengthens and lengthens relationships, thereby providing the support network for nurturing the young.

Look at the advertisements for almost any product, even those farthest removed from this biological function, and you will frequently find that the pitch has found someway to make the product or service 'sexy' unless it has fallen back on the dependable foundation of appealing of pandering to fear or greed.

I work in retail and some of my best entertainment comes from reading the labels and sales pitches of new and merely repackaged products.

It's a riot to think that many will fall for it, yet they do......

I can hardly believe that I am still surprised by human nature.

[SteveA]

I must shamefully confess that I come from a long line of people who just couldn't resist a roll in hay or two Old habits die hard ...

[austintorn@aol.com]

I must shamefully confess that I come from a long line of people who just couldn't resist a roll in hay or two Old habits die hard ...

Of that long line of people, all of them had sex.


We went to an old country dairy the other day to get our car's wiring fixed by one who knew trucks, dropping it near midnight for the next day. There was a barn and a silo in the background, kind of a spooky sight.

We heard some voices coming from behind an ambulance parked near the garage and looked on one side; they voices were bouncing off the wall, so we went around the other side; a man was laying on the ground, as if he’d fallen out of the ambulance, but was really fixing one of its wheels and talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone.

We left a note about the truck and wandered towards the barn, greeted by some chickens and a cat.

There was a ladder outside the barn leading to the hayloft opening. We went up and in.

[SteveA]

One way that might give a clearer view of things is to try to clear away any preconceptions at all about government and look more directly how people affect each other and see if there is an ideal that most people are looking and I believe there is, if you exclude the "ideals" of trying to control each other. Even a sadistic desire to see others suffer is still something that people could "voluntarily" submit to (though that seems warped, but there could be some people who're, for whatever reason, willing to live in such circumstances and as long as they're not imposing that on others, it should not be up to others to "save" them).

Assume for a second that there suddenly was no government anywhere, nor preexisting culture or assumptions of proper social decorum etc. - we're new born babes in a world with no prior knowledge of how we're suppose to interact.

It's not difficult to find that we can benefit by interacting, though some interactions can be detrimental.

1) Exchanges that provide a benefit to everyone involved, there's no reason to impede these and no force or laws should be involved to restrict or deter these.

2) Interactions in which someone is undesiring of some aspect is where we have conflicts. So first of all, laws and force should only regard areas in which there is some form of victim. If there is noone complaining, then no action should be taken.

3) If a "victim" is voluntarily participating in some interaction and is freely able to remove themself from these circumstances if desired, then this "victim" likely has no legitimate complaint. (For example, someone goes into a private bar and complains about people smoking - it should be up to the owner of the establishment to determine whether or not this is appropriate and no laws should impose specific circumstances on this. Someone is free to have a bar in which no smoking is allows)

4) Any actions taken to resolve some conflict should be done with the aim of placing the minimal restrictions necessary to resolve the issue and the damages done by this restriction should be weighed against the benefit to the victim of altering this. Compensation or restitution should be considered in both directions.

For example, let's hypothetically say that human influences on CO2 had a significant effect on global temperatures (not that this is my belief, but it's a great example of how warped the current thinking is, even if it were true). It is not as if everyone or everything is harmed by this. Some areas could benefit and increased levels of CO2 can assist in plant growth etc.

So if force is involved, it should be looked at from the perspective of what natural rights would people have regarding determining CO2 level as well as which people desire it to be higher or lower etc. and compensation between parties should occur to pay from those desiring specific circumstances to those who were denied having their desired result.

Some people may find no issue with higher CO2 levels and any shift in temperatures could even be considered beneficial to them. In this case and laws forcing them to restrict CO2 is against their interest and they should be compensated by those desiring it different.

Same thing for the prostitution above - if noone had any issues with public prostitution there would be no reason to restrict it. Any laws passed to restrict it are preferentially selecting a part of the populaces view and those whom this adversely affects, in many ways, should be compensated for this loss.

If everyone had identical views and could read each others mind, then we could probably have no conflicts though that would be like zombieville Not particularly pleasant IMO. So there will be some conflicts, but we should at better ways of coordinating these and find alternatives to the "majority" vote (which in many cases is a slim majority of a minority of a populace that voted) "democratic" system. It should be relabeled mobocracy The ideal of people ruling themselves should be concentrated on maximizing individual freedoms - any government added to this should just be in terms of a social structure to help avoid conflict (I still think there are ways in which no "official" government at all and the same services can be better realized by a structure of communication with people using a little intelligence to recognize they're better off working together than fighting each other, but it could take starting over from square #1 by many and really consider what they're looking for in an ideal government).

[austintorn@aol.com]

Dawning

The stars began to take flight.
Night’s cup had seemed empty, light,
Bottomless, heartless, and cold;
Day was about to refill it with gold.

They felt the touch of that dawn, then,
As its freshness washed over them—
It was a sweetness and a serenity
Like the mist that drifts into a valley
And fills it fresh with moisture.

Some refreshment was anticipated.
Reaching up to a rose bush, unsated;
They bent down the branch of Moses
And drank the dew from the roses,
Then stooped to pick some strawberries.

What is the name of the rose?
They had wondered silent as a cloud,
Until they each had spoken it aloud,
Although without answer from either one.

They strolled into a forest of floral colors
That were lush and soft in bowers:
Lavender, crimson, and ever-during green.

The leaves of the previous autumn
Had made a multicolored carpet spun.
Ideas cascaded over their minds—
Thoughts suddenly loosened
By the inspiration from the exertion.
A light rain was falling
That excited their senses, calling,
Jogging their thoughts even more.

“Walking is good exercise,
“I am feeling energized.”

“Yes, it gives back much more than it takes.
Walking is as easy as falling forward makes!”

“Oh, yes; breath deeply; relax,
Let your thoughts flow up and out.”

“My thoughts are becoming clear.
Alertness tingles in my senses, dear.
Oh, I am becoming so wide awake.
I love this world and everything it makes.”

“Breath in all that’s good, freely,
Then breath out all that’s bad.”

“I feel peace flowing into me—
It’s warm and wet and glad.”

“It’s spreading through your body
And into your spirit?”

“Oh yes, oh yes, dear yes.
This is the best life I’ve ever had!”

“It’s like an eager sap rising in the veins;
We’re inspired by the warmth of a spring rain.”

“Because you’ve lived through winter’s chills,
“To see another round of daffodils!”

“Like sparks from the smoldering embers tame,
We rekindle our fires from nature’s flame.”

“Could it be that a rose is a rose is a rose?”

“No, for that answer would be much too easy.”

[austintorn@aol.com]

Writing

While writing, much more is drawn from the mind,
For there is relative silence, with no starting gun,
As in speaking, for that is in real time done.
The muses then, are one’s own depths mined.