Maslow's hierarchy of psychosocial needs

[melanie]

If love is so great__Why is the world so full of pain...???

To even utter the word LOVE is regarded as PAIN.

Love implies two.....what if the one you love doesn't love you? = pain. To know love is to know pain.
Pain can feel like the absence of love, and i'm not talking about physical pain, this pain is transient it comes and goes.
I'm talking about mental pain, the pain of separation.
This is an attached form of love, a love you might depend on for your happiness and wellbeing,
attachment to this kind of love keeps you bound.

Know that you are already LOVE ...you do not need anything outside of yourself to make you happy or loving.
When you come from a space of un-conditional love, you draw ''like'' back to you, it is this love that will suffice and sustain you.
It's your reflection.


You can truly understand the concept of confusion chaos and misery and why it exists in the world when you finally embrace your innate spiritual nature wholly and truly without a shadow of doubt,
this is known as truly ''Knowing Yourself'' or ''Self Knowledge''
No one can do it for you, you cannot know from 1,000's of books or anything else outside of yourself, if you are looking here, you'll find no answers, you'll find plenty of pointers, but the final Aha moment, has to come from you alone.

You must understand you are a finite expression of the infinite Atman.

Atman: the spiritual life principle of the universe, especially when regarded as inherent in the real self of the individual, metaphorically speaking a person's soul.

That said: …… you then need to understand the following.


The embodiment of the soul is apparent and not real. Therefore it's birth and death are also apparent only.
A knower of Self realizes that repeated cycles of birth and death are like nightmares and not real.
A knower of Self is truly awakened.
Though experiencing disease, old age, and death, he remains unruffled by them because he knows that they are characteristic of the body and not of the Self.
He is also free from desire, which arises when one is identified with the body.
For if a person has realized himself to be the ultimate reality underlying all phenomena or 'Brahman'
which is infinite and all-pervading, and if he sees himself in the universe and the universe in himself, he cannot desire anything.
Self-Knowledge liberates the individual soul from it's bondage and delusion.
Only Self-Knowledge can overcome suffering and death.

This is the Vedantic conception of immortality, an immortality not to be attained in heaven, but here on earth in this very body through the knowledge of the immortal nature of the self.

The ancient Upanishads say:
"Dwelling in this very body, we have somehow realized Brahman; otherwise we should have remained ignorant and great destruction would have overtaken us.
Those who know Brahman become immortal, while others only suffer misery."

The knower of Atman is like a man who is awakened from sleep and dreams no more of empty things.
He is like a man who, having been blind, has received back his eyesight.
That's what Jesus meant by his metaphorical preaching to the masses, when he was talking about making the blind see again….he didn't mean it literally.
Miracles: were used as metaphors pointing us back to our true selves /nature in the way of alchemy, or of personal transformation.

Conclusion: Know thyself.

And not many people do…hence suffering.

[melanie]

The following describes a bit more about self-actualization
http://personcentered.com/selfact.html

Wow! what a great thread, this link is perfect Antonio.. many thanks for posting it.

I can't believe i didn't visit this topic earlier......
Ooops! been missing out, but one can't be everywhere at once as they say? except love is..


Thanks Antonio.

[melanie]

If love is so great__Why is the world so full of pain...???

Because of Attachment.....Attachment to what isn't t-here.

Everything in life has false dualistic views.
If we choose to enter the door of dualism, then we get hurt, disappointed, and bitter in the end.
If we choose a better doorway which is emptiness, then the door leads seemingly nowhere yet everywhere.
Emptiness of dualism.This door leads to NowHere.

[melanie]

Dear beloved Austin.

My imaginary Toe friend.

austintorn@aol.com
Mel, perhaps you could get pregnant in the 'Maslow' thread, for there is some sex going on there.

I cannot get pregnant, nor do I need sex.

I am the Immaculate Conception.....

I am your dream girl.....

Always thinking of you, with much LOVE

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Love is the mystic myth, we all desire__Yet the myth of such false desire, creates all our real pains...

The logic and true psychology of wisdom, our highest intelligences, is what we truly seek__Not the mystic myths, creating all Earth's pains...

The finite 'spacetime' of Minkowski/Einstein, exists inside the infinite object of space, and the infinite volume of time__The true primitive fundamentals...

There exists no dyadic mechanics, sufficiently powerful, to process the true primitive fundamental triadic mechanics of self and universe...

There exists no dyadic intelligence, sufficiently powerful, to process the true primitive fundamental triadic intelligence of the bio-self-wisdom...

The problem arose when absolute logic, was false axiomatically converted to relative logic__a false axiomatic system__conjectured and projected by Minkowski/Einstein__though Einstein, less Minkowski, is mostly true...

'Spacetime' is a finite false axiom, at the heart of infinite measure__The necessity of intuitionistic logic over mathematics...

Love is the love of the true self-control__of self-wisdom__Then, and only then, can this love be shared...

Nature holds its true love__until self-truth discovers its true wisdom, for all to share__and only at that moment, does pure love blossom...

[austintorn@aol.com]

Dear beloved Austin.

I am the Immaculate Conception.....

I am your dream girl.....

Always thinking of you, with much LOVE

To Immaculata:

Your wine, my persona radiata,
Fills the golden chalice—oh, Sultana,
I’m intoxicated by your love-stream
Flowing freely—oh dear, amorata!

Our passions smolder, like incense fuming,
And brightly burn, the candle flames luming,
Waxing full as we consume the body,
And then rise as spirit smoke, mushrooming.

[Mikal]

Though I agree this can be seen as a recurring problem, notice that if such an area had a populace with a decent government that did not allow such coercive acquisitions to occur then this would no have been the issue. It's the laws and policies that are the problems. We just recently had it to where the federal government said eminent domain can be used to transfer ownership of property between private parties, which basically bypasses capitalism and free markets altogether. That's practically communism where government determines who owns what - as if they somehow own everything already and can transfer property around willy nilly.

That's not capitalism nor anything a corporate entity under capitalism should be free to do. It's the government entities that are kicking people out of homes or using the force to impede free markets or place recurring taxes on private property or shutting down businesses (so that Corp X can buy it up) etc.

We need to clean things up here and become competitive as well ... maybe buy out Corp X for a change and hopefully not let the good times get squandered or abused. I don't think it's a matter of working harder. People work hard enough. It's a matter of reducing the internal conflicts and unnecessary burdens as well as getting more people out of the "dependent" state and into the "self sufficient" state instead.

At least that seems the longer terms resolution to me and something many people have been wanting for a long time.

True, in a sense, it's just (human) nature at work ... it could be it's a great time for people to learn why various ideas have been around for a long time and why ignoring them is not particularly beneficial.

I realize we have similar concerns, I'm just trying to point out what I think is a bit better long term resolution and how some truly significant reforms should be made.

I don't doubt that this could be the case. We probably both agree that the Federal Reserve is a definite weak link in our currency system. I don't want to say that only more tangible currencies could resolve it, but at a minimum it appears we need some competition in the use of currency (using gold is discouraged and maybe it would be good to remove some of the impediments for people to use alternate forms of currency ... I can guess which one would win in terms of retaining its value between gold and the dollar ... no competition at all! ).

It appears we see similar issues. Notice that it is not business itself, but corruption of government that is the weak link. We need healthy businesses and should have a system that allows individuals to succeed if they can without unnecessary impediments in the way.

We both appear to agree on the major problems and I know you see public education as a problem as well as the family courts and many detrimental cultural influences. I think the significant difference is on how we perceive the best resolutions to these in some areas. To me it seems the focus needs to be more locally - we shouldn't worry about how the rest of the world does but instead should focus on learning from mistakes and instead doing it right at home. The economy can't be ignored with problems arising and if we drag the economy down here, then yes, other economic powers will walk in - that's not entirely their fault.

I do enjoy the discussion as it's a good subject that brings out a better view of the issues. We've been exposed to a lot of propaganda and need to see where it arises from and what its focus is on and how it's blindsiding us from being able to resolve the issues at home. Many people have been working hard on these issues ... maybe a clearer view and strategy is needed and something that is less of just patching the latest leak in the boat.

Again, thank you for your posts, I apologize if I seem overly argumentative at times, but it's because I think even many hard working and good intentioned people can have their efforts sabatoged or diminished in some aspects and it seems important to get a very clear picture of what's going on ... lots of people want a change, we don't want to just repeat the same.

Have a good evening,
Steve

Hi Steve, once again I aplogize for such a late response—the 4th quarter in my job always yanks me around from pillar to post! No need to apologize for what you see as ‘being overly argumentative,’ we are having a discussion, a debate so to speak and that naturally entails the engagement of both our viewpoints. I neither see this as argument or anyone trying to prove a point—its just bringing to light a lot of the social issues we are facing and struggling with.

You made this statement, ‘Anyone who wants to should be free to dream about ruling the world and I don't think that's something we could consider a punishable crime.’

We do not have a good historical record in this area Steve, and so of course we have in the past the tyranny of Alexander the Great, the Napoleonic Wars, the genocide of Hitler, and these are just to name afew..
We would wonder why these men who achieved great public notariety and were trusted to hold responsibility to actions on the foundation of societies’ needs… essentially ended up creating Empires that brought tyranny and misery to the masses.

The pertinent word here would be ‘dream’ for it is motivated by desire and desire is an emotional force that can overwhelm and impair clear thinking—yes to desire is an unconscious power of the imagination. As this would be the powers that develop the ‘self’ this power would either develop the self into points of self discipline, selfishness or self-centered power. To be overcome by those powers through dreaming, would produce a Hitler, a Napoleon or an Alexander the Great—all these men achieved a state of ‘self-centered power’ and as Carl Jung said, ‘the unconscious is History waiting to happen.”

I see no wisdom in a dream of this nature, just a high potential for great civilizational folly!

The men we deal with now are no different, their dream is of the same nature, their nature is one uncharacteristic of strength of character or ethical dimension, and the outcome for us will be an ‘Economic Empire’ of nightmare proportions—any civilization lost in Empire building represents the surfacing of great power drives—an old order passing—let us hope we can eliminate our blind-spots in time so to prevent the re-visiting of the past upon ourselves.

Thanks for your deliberations on the subject matter....


Regards Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

The Epic

The epic poem of the picaresque journey
Of a couple through the countryside
That celebrates the joy and
The embrace of the human condition
Continues on, never ending,
For, a giant tunnel boring machine,
Ever far ahead,
Is grinding up prose into poetry.

Luckily, some of the prosaic
Was already poetic.

Here is the part the first,
That wasn’t posted here previously,
Along with its cool video,
Especially the beginning:



The Fugue

A man and a woman, feeling young again,
Were walking through a fertile valley in the year 1810,
Traveling toward the misty mountains and beyond.

He carried an ancient book that he’d salvaged, sound,
As the monastical village had burned to the ground,
And she carried but a single red rose.

Together they softly hummed the melody
Of the Pachelbel Canon freely,
Each of them singing one of the fugal voices,
For they lived as two-part harmony’s choices—
As equal partners in life and love:

They were, at once, free yet attached and ranging,
Playful but serious, stable yet changing,
Thinkers yet doers, adventurous though not foolish,
Poetic as well as prosaic, and reasonable but passionate.

“We’re free now!”
She said, playfully nudging him.

“Yes, we’re free at last,”
He said, kissing her on the cheek.

A smile of love passed between their lips,
For even though they were now quite homeless,
Their life together had become a celebration,
And thus they happily walked on through the valley
In the dark by the light of the setting moon.
False dawn came and went too soon,
And morning twilight later glowed in the east.
A familiar nightingale sang in the breach,
But just as quickly flew away.
Whither and whence it flew, they did not know.


The Verse

Although the day-tide had barely spoken,
He, nonetheless, opened their precious token—
A mysterious book of poetry that had been sealed
With a waxen shield, it remaining concealed
For over ten centuries in the secret chamber
Of the library of the old monastery’s remainder.

The tome was written in some foreign language,
In verses of thirteen syllables in four-line stanzas.

They opened it as one would a tender lover:
A small bottle was encased inside the front cover;
Some of its spirit had apparently escaped
When the volume had been undraped,
For they’d been captivated by the Persia fumes—
The perfume of ageless rhymes from ancient looms.

“It’s written in Persian,” she noted, looked,
Having handled many of the foreign books
In her role as editor in the abbey’s nooks.

“It’s the library’s most valuable book,”
He said, having illuminated and unhooked
So many of the monastery’s great books.
It was the only one I could save;
The only book we’ll ever crave.”

They watched, amazed, as the book came to life,
Like a good husband in the presence of his wife.

The words of the Persian poems then began
To move around the page, as over it they ran,
Sometimes briefly changing into English,
Entire verse-lines dancing like a dervish.

Then, after settling down from the struggle
The words would yet again jump and juggle,
Hanging back and then ever surging forth,
Darting around through the verses’ course
Within each stanza to form a brighter source,
Lines which yet stated the differing aspects
Of the original and pervading concepts.

‘Twas as this magical language transmogrification
Was attempting to preserve the entire relation
Of the original poetic scheme throughout—
The whole translation process so devout,
Including literal meaning, rhythm, rhyme,
Melody, syllables, meter, and time;
However, this didn’t seem to be workative,
And so it followed that something had to give,
And that ‘something’ was the ration
That was usually lost in the translation.

Finally, out of apparent desperation uncaged
The Persian verses jumped right off of the page
And splashed into the bottle of perfume,
Wherein they redistilled themselves, subsumed,
Leaping back out and on to the empty page,
Whereupon they recondensed, restaged,
And recomposed themselves for this new age—
Into Victorian style verse—into new quatrains
In which only the essence of the remains
Of the original concept of meaning was maintained.

The lines were now ten syllables, rather than thirteen,
With so many related meanings heretofore unseen;
But the verses were still in groups of four per stanza,
And the correct lines still rhymed, yet per lingua,
Although some of the rhyming schemes
Didn’t always have quite the same means.

Yes, some things unnecessary had been lost,
But something new had been added and tossed—
Something somehow much better told,
Although still within the spirit of the old.

“What are you?” she asked of the book.

“Are you alive?” he asked, as he shook.

The book replied, “I am the book of life,
My pages rife with the antidotes of strife;
I am conscious dream, a living philosophy—
I live forever through my words, wholly.

“On my pages you will find all of man’s follies,
Joys, sorrows, wisdom, and all the jollies.
Read me and my ideas will come alive—
Demonstrating the happiest ways to survive!

“It is by experiencing my words
That you shall know them forwards.

“Yes, many arts may enrich human experience,
But they’re no substitutes for the living of it.”

“What is your name?”
He asked of the same.

“My name is a question only—
A mystery that you have to solve, namely,
‘What is the name of the Rose?’”

They looked for a minute at the tome,
Deeply inhaling its perfume.

( It was Persia-fume )

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The sage's voice says; "A wise and truly virtuous dictator, allows the salvation of the world, from its present over-moral democratic ignorance..."

Mr. Computer Sage Is Coming To A World's Rescue, Near You__Soon...!!!

[melanie]

To Immaculata:

Your wine, my persona radiata,
Fills the golden chalice—oh, Sultana,
I’m intoxicated by your love-stream
Flowing freely—oh dear, amorata!

Our passions smolder, like incense fuming,
And brightly burn, the candle flames luming,
Waxing full as we consume the body,
And then rise as spirit smoke, mushrooming.

Nice poem Austin....

There is not muchroomin here for two...so no con in this fusion.