[Robert]

Brainwashed may be too strong a word to use here. Perhaps I could have titled this thread, "How to know when your beliefs are not your own and quite possible are far out-of-wack with reality". We all have beliefs about reality, i.e. the meaning of life, existence of god, life after death, conspiracies, aliens, walk-ins, etc. Unless I'm wrong, I believe that many of our beliefs are just plain wrong. Even those beliefs that we most strongly believe. How can we know if we are one of these people, or believe in one of those beliefs that are not our own (brainwashed perhaps?), delusional, not justified or based on fact.

If you talk to a member of a cult, or someone who has been brainwashed, they are absolutely convinced of the reality of their beliefs even when they are so obviously delusional to the sane person. Think about your most sacred and cherished belief. What if you are wrong. How could you be convinced of your flawed thinking? Would it even be possible? I think it would be very difficult. The stronger the belief the larger the groove in your brain. I doubt if a persons thinking can hop out of the erroneous groove into one that more closely maps reality without a lot of work. And then why work at it if you don't see the flaws in your thinking. So my question is, How can we recognize these flaws?

[austintorn@aol.com]

If we believe in ideas that were handed down to us merely (arbritrarily) from geographical, sociological, or familial sources, then we may have been unwittingly indoctrinated, especially if we can note that had we been born elsewhere, or hung with a different crowd, or had been in another family, we might be just as strongly epsousing some other, but quite different, "cult" belief.

[safwan]

Originally Posted by Robert ... How could you be convinced of your flawed thinking? Would it even be possible? I think it would be very difficult. The stronger the belief the larger the groove in your brain. I doubt if a persons thinking can hop out of the erroneous groove into one that more closely maps reality without a lot of work. And then why work at it if you don't see the flaws in your thinking. So my question is, How can we recognize these flaws?

Everyone, without exception, is "brainwashed" to some extent or another, for very good reasons: if one has to think for himself on every aspect and make decisions in every step on purely "rational" grounds, then one has to have a brain the size of a barn. So, for reasons of "economy of Mind", the great majority of our actions and thoughts are programmed by nature and culture in form of instincts, habits, and beliefs.

The great majority of people have no reason to question these "programs" as long as they appear to work. Success breeds conservatism and dogmatism. That is the price of success.

But because of the nature of change manifest in "Reality" they don’t work indefinitely and sooner or later a "crisis" appears. It is only in times of social, or epistemological crises that awareness shifts from ends to means, and critiques of systems of beliefs ensue, to deconstruct old systems and construct new systems. That is when people know they have been "brainwashed" but only to adopt a new form of "brainwashing".

I don’t see a way out of this state at the present level of human civilization.

Regards, Safwan

[safwan]

Originally Posted by austintorn@aol.com ... if we can note that had we been born elsewhere, or hung with a different crowd, or had been in another family, we might be just as strongly epsousing some other, but quite different, "cult" belief.

On the contrary, I think if one was exposed to more than one culture or social setting, they are less likely to be biased or dogmatic, and more inclined to view reality in relative terms, and to think critically.

Rgrads, Safwan

[tedjay]

[ And then why work at it if you don't see the flaws in your thinking. So my question is, How can we recognize these flaws?[/quote]

I really don't think one can recognize the flaws or work out why we react as we do to any situation unless we recognize the hold that the subconscious has over us. The subconscious sits quietly in the background controlling every emotion and action. This stranger within can however be controlled if one understands its characteristics and how it works. Then there is hope of knowing your flaws and taking action to ''Tame Your Tyrant''. I intended to write a second book with this title and may still do so, but perhaps this is the ideal forum to float the ideas first.
I have finished the 9 physics articles (5 still to be posted) so I will start on the new postings.

Kind Regards

Tedjay

[mkirkpatrick]

It is well nigh impossible in this present day modern world to be completely free from
brainwashing propaganda,it particular with media mass advertising,it would need intensive
de-fogging programs to cleanse the crap that we have all been fed these past few years.




regards michael

[everymansmedium]

Hello Robert:
How much time to do spend watching Fox TV? Forget I asked that question. I promise I will not go there.
I probably should not even get involved in the thread because of my background. I get to see layers of brainwashing that most do not see nor do they want to. The reason for this is because of the way that I achieved my education. This immediately opens a can of worms as it puts me at odds to 99% of the people that I must communicate with. I was not educated in the CAPITALIST EDUCATION SYSTEM and because of this I am not subject to all of the brainwashing that results normally from this system.
For the sake of simplicity I will not post what would result in an early history of my life unless probed or criticized for my beliefs. The only way to be for the most part free of external influence in your education is to educate yourself without any institutional influence.
The biggest offending source is our CAPITAL MEDIA SYSTEM. This is the result of the place of worship in the living room that holds the majority of the attention of mankind constantly. Even while they sleep the crap still leaks into our mind if we are foolish enough to leave the tube on. The rest of our system that is responsible for this is the Capital judicial system of lawyers writing laws for lawyers and insurance companies. The Capital political system that writes laws that are influenced by how many lobbyists you can afford to pay and how much Tube time you can buy. Then the Capital medical system tries to make sure that we will not survive long enough to collect SSI by the negation of those between 62 and 65 from health care aid. I know I promised not to get political but that question is the heart of the issue.
There is an interesting web sight that shows the 14 points of fascism as relative to my above statements. I was being good I did not even post the link.
I will say no more
John

[tedjay]

Hi John,
I grew up in a white skin in apartheid South Africa so I know all about state sponsored brain washing. It's very persuasive. However having come out the other side and having TV access to CNN, BBC, Russia Today, and Al Jazerra amongst others, and being much longer in the tooth, I believe that I might have a pretty balanced view. I do not subscribe to your view of the ''CAPITAL MEDIA SYSTEM'' All media tend to oversubscribe to their own country's ethos but what really blows me away are the common ethical core values they display rather than their differences. Indeed freedom of the press, media and speech are powerful instruments against brainwashing.
The following is said with the utmost respect and is not meant to be critical of your persona, but it does seem to me that you suffer paranoia which can be the result of brainwashing! What makes you scared of telling us about yourself or giving us the website or being ''political''? Have you been brainwashed??

Kind Regards

Tedjay

[everymansmedium]

Hello Tedjay: #8
Of course I am brainwashed. We all are in one way or another. This is not the problem. There are 2 things to consider to see the problem, one is to be continuously aware of this fact, the other is to understand the primary motivation that it instills within us. I was one of the original hippies. The ones that started this phenomena were in 2 groups. One was From Boston University the other was from Brandeis University. The original word hippie lost its original meaning by the mob of people that only thought that they knew what was happening. Even the spelling is wrong. The original word was Hyp. The term comes from the word hypnotism. The original group actually had a very good agenda. Most of these were medical students. Being to reduce the effect of prejudicial thinking relative to Blacks and to Jews also
(inspired to reverse the kind of thinking that led to Hitler and WW2)
When they realized the size of the action that they had started they vanished into the mob and went about there business. Much good was done relative to the attitude of the people that followed to accept each other as people rather than whatever group you may have come from. it was not even considered. This is why they were latter called the flower children and the love generation. It was a very nice thing to walk into a group of people that you never saw before in your life and are asked to sit and join in, what ever the activity might be. It is too bad this did not last. It got spoiled by many that took advantage of the situation to advance their own agenda whether that be sex or money or power. This is what the following finally became just before it died. Perverted by greed. All the things that one might want were there. There was no need to take advantage of anything. Just being part get you part of all that is there. The infiltration was done by What I like to call the pack animals. The typical bar room groups that would say to each other before going in town. “Hey guys lets go in town and get a hippy girl”. Is this truly infiltration by the fascist groups that it was originally meant to stop? I saw this from both sides. I grew up in South Boston but very much different than the typical pack animals that came from there. Because of knowing how to survive there I knew how to deal with both. There is simply a time to be silent no matter what you think if you wish to live. Do not get me wrong about South Boston, There were many like me also. We however do not organize, We are the loners we are not pack animals. You may recognize this distinction as a very basic difference within the family of man. Do I understand about brainwashing? You might say I learned it from the pro’s. Last I heard some of these people that I knew finally got involved with varied government organizations. I am sure you might guess where they went and what they might have gotten involved with.
I can tell you I felt totally disillusioned when I discovered that most of these people SOLD OUT to become the name yuppie This meaning just say yes to the money. I never did. But then I had a very different beginning. I guess you might say I may well be one of the very last true hyppie's , not a hippie, not a yuppie.
Maybe to truly understand this I should post a paragraph or 2 that will give you an idea of my beginning?
John

[everymansmedium]

Tedjay #8
I got my education as the result of what was very much like a game. The game was to learn as much about this society and what it knows, or thinks it knows by close examination of any and all the information that can be had from the outside of the system. This was very much the result of many things that happened to me as a child and again as a young adult.
The game was as if I was an alien from another planet in the process of learning all I could about earth and mankind. Why my learning was like this was as a child both of my parents were severe alcoholics. Also my sister 10 years older than me was as well, and later her husband also. My mother died of acute alcoholism when I was 14 she had been in a hospital for a year before dying. After my mother died It was not unusual to come home from school to find my father in a pool of his own vomit and the house that I was supporting smelled like muscatel. I was raised as a catholic. It did not take me long to believe that what I was told by my fellow man was BS. I came home from school most of the time to an empty house even from the 1st grade on up as mother worked a second shift to come home after I went to bed and my dad got home about 8:30 PM I am sure that some of this was time at the bar after work.
I learned to experiment with everything as I had plenty of time to do so without interference. I learned to do things simply for the sake of doing it. I had nobody to compete with. I learned to spend my time at the library. My main interest was electronics. I built my first 5 transistor SH radio at 12 years old. I tried to get myself sent to Charlestown HS to learn electronics. No body helped me or sponsored me so I was turned down even though I had the best scores. As soon I turned 16 I quit school and spent all of that time in the library learning what I wanted to learn. The main thing that I learned was how to learn on my own. I was still supporting my self from a few sources that I had. The Fargo potato house unloading trucks. I looked much older that I was. I was also very strong. I could share 3 or 4 trucks per day. This was about 48 dollars per day. I was accepted as a partner for whist and played this 2 nights per week. This was almost always good for 20 to 30 per night. We did not loose very often. I also parked cars from Blinstrims if they had a big name, when there lot filled up on a Friday or Saturday night we would park them in the White Fuel parking lot and charge them $5 each. Some of these people would tip as much as $10 . This was good for 6 or 7 hundred dollar to split between the 2 of us. One to direct them to WF lot about 100 yds away, and I would park them and charge them. You can see what my education looked like at:
http://iscando.com/personal/edu.htm
The only thing that this does not show is how I originally got into the electronics industry without what might be called formal education. I got into an ABCD program sponsored by Honeywell CCD. This class was meant to fill the need for people that could pass the soldering specifications imposed on companies that were to supply NASA during the SA (moon landing) program. The course was given to people that were in need of a way to support their family. (Mass State Employment) I was one of 2 white people in the class of 44 original people. I talked our instructor into giving a technical exam as well as the exam for the soldering. I even told him I was so sure of myself that I would bet him $20 I would pass his test with 90% or better score. He finally decided to give the test. I passed the dc ohms law with 100% I told him that he did not even give us the hard stuff. The next day he brought an exam that included AC ohms law, And I passed that as well with only 2 wrong out of 120 questions. I was told that I was wasting my time in the class that I was in and they gave me a job in the metrology department learning to repair oscilloscopes and other CRT devices like spectrum analyzers, sampling units etc.
After I went to work I took the exam for HS equivalency and passed it in the 99 percentile for both science and math and about 90 % for English etc
From this point on everyday was a school day.
John