[RascalPuff]

Is organized warfare inherent to the human condition, or it it conditioned through learning from previous generations?

Organized warfare:
Nature?
Nurture?
Or both?

Best regards,
- RP

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by RascalPuff Is organized warfare inherent to the human condition, or is it conditioned through learning from previous generations. Organized warfare: Nature? Nurture? Or both?

Rascal ..... You need to define a few terms:

'Organised Warfare' is a very open term. Even if we define it as 'Large Scale Warfare' it still remains a very open interpretation.

Pre-historic warfare, for which there is some evidence, may have consisted of only a few tens of combatants, but relative to the population of the area at the time it could be considered large scale.

My own point of view is that all wars are, in the final analysis, turf wars.

From internecine warfare in the Pelopenesians emerged the first working democracy. This democracy, struggling to put out the still glowing embers of its birth, was forced to face the Persian Empire and fought 2 of the greatest strategic battles of all time. The Battle of Thermopalye, where they lost but gained time to regather and destroy the Persian invader in the Battle of the Sea of Corinth.

Democracy was born in Internecine Warfare, and was 'blooded' when it faced the entire Persian Army.

Many thousands of 'Greeks' lost their lives and hundreds of thousands of Persians lost theirs. But the prize was Democracy .. the birth of a freedom where all could have a say.

Nature, Nurture, or Both ? I would say both.

History is at its most fallible when examining warfare, as the loser is never around to tell his tale. Most people (western) would unhesitatingly state that WWII was won by the allies .. In fact it was won by Russia (a reluctant ally), and the turning point for all of us was the Battle of Stalingrad which led to the massive defeat of Germany at Kursk. Germany had lost a third of its entire army when these 2 battles were over and would never make an advance on any front again.

If you question people the English will say that WWII was in the main the Battle of Europe, Americans will say the Pacific, Australians combine North Africa and the South Pacific. As for the losers ... well, who asks them ?

For me the war was won or lost at 2 critical battles, Stalingrad and Midway.
I look on War as the Prey look at its Predator, necessary ... as long as your not caught.

cool bananas ... greg

[RascalPuff]

Hey Bananas:

In the context of reference, organized warfare is when the culture from which the warriors originate, organizes to train, arm and deploy the military element. Of course it's for turf.
'Turf' has to do with natural resources (especially water), as well as livestock and very importantly, slaves.

It may be both nature and nurture, but there are two established schools of thought under those titles and this thread is up casting a hopeful net for an array of responses.

Here's some resource material:

THE ART OF WAR - Sun Tzu
ON WAR - Karl Von Clauzewitz

ON AGGRESSION - Konrad Lorenz

ON KILLING - Lt. Col. Grossman

ON VIOLENCE: The Code Of Denial & Silence;
The Normalization Of Betrayals Of Oaths Of Public Office
- K.B. Robertson

THE ANATOMY OF HUMAN DESTRUCTIVENESS - Eric Fromm

AN INTIMATE HISTORY OF KILLING:
Face To Face Killing In The 20th Century
- Joanna Bourke

THE BATTLE FOR HISTORY - John Keegan

THE ABUSE OF POWER - Theodore Draper

TO END WAR - R. Pickus & R. Woito

THE RIDE OF THE SECOND HORSEMAN - R. L. O’Connell

A HISTORY OF WARFARE - John Keegan

DUPLICITY, INTRIGUE, BRUTE FORCE & INTIMIDATION:
The Male Sexist Oracle. The American Way - K.B. Robertson

WOMEN IN WAR - Shelly Saywell
THE CAUSES & PREVENTION OF WAR - Brown

THE DECLINE & FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE - Edward Gibbon

THE FIRST CASUALTY - Phillip Knightly
(‘In times of war, truth is the first casualty’. - Sen. H. Johnson, 1917)

THE MASK OF COMMAND - John Keegan

THE RISE & FALL OF GREAT POWERS - Paul Kennedy

THE OUTLINE OF HISTORY - H.G. Wells

GENGHIS KHAN - Harold Lamb

THE EARTH IS THE LORD’S - Taylor Caldwell

POLAND - James Michener

The I CHING - author(s) unknown.

THE KORAN - Muhammed
The TORAH & TALMUD - author(s) unknown
The BAGHADVAD GITA - author(s) unknown

THE ROYAL HORDES - E.D. Phillips

HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS - Bertold Spuler

VIOLENCE & CRIME: In Cross National Perspective
- Archer and Gartner

THE GOOD WAR - Studs Terkel

THE DIALECTIC CYCLE - Cyclic Pendulum - OF HISTORY - Friedrich Hegel

THE PELOPONNESIAN WARS
The Self Destruction Of The Greek State By Civil Wars - Herodotus (& standard references.)

DESCRIPTIONS OF THE NEW WORLD: The Travels Of Marco Polo
- Marco Polo, translated by William Marsden

THE VOYAGE OF THE BEAGLE - Charles Darwin

THE COMPETITIVE IMPERATIVE - K.B. Robertson

ANTI VIOLENCE STATEMENTS: Suppression Of Great Minds - Albert Einstein

THE HISTORY OF THE MINOANS - Standard reference sources

SOLDIERS - John Keegan

THE POLITICS OF EXPERIENCE - R.D. Laing

THE YASA - Genghis Khan (As translated by Rashid al Din.)

THE DISCOVERERS - Daniel J. Boorstin

THE DESCENT OF WOMAN - Elaine Morgan

THE ASCENT OF MAN - J. Bronowski
THE NAKED APE - Desmond Morris

OUR ORIENTAL HERITAGE - Will Durant

THE LOOM OF LANGUAGE - Frederick Bodmer

THE SOURCE - James Michener

THE CIVIL WAR - National Geographic

POLITICAL TERRORISM - Grant Wardlaw

NUEROLINGUSTIC PROGRAMMING - Richard W. Bandler

OPERANT CONDITIONING, BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION
& (so called) PSYCHOMOLECULAR RESTRUCTURING
- Standard informational resources

WORLD WAR II - John Keegan

CIVILIZATION & ITS DISCONTENTS - Sigmund Freud

THE TERRITORIAL IMPERATIVE - Robert Ardrey

AMUSING OURSELVES TO DEATH - Neil Postman

RUNNING FROM SAFETY - Richard Bach

EXTRAORDINARY POPULAR DELUSIONS AND THE MADNESS OF CROWDS
- Mackay

THE ART OF MISSING THE POINT: When You Can’t Afford To Catch On
- K.B. Robertson

“*GEORGE ORWELL’S (1984) PREDICTIONS ARE RIDICULOUS.”
- *Time / Life Publishers (*1/1/’84 Feature Article)

BRUTE FORCE, THE MALE SEXIST ORACLE: The American Way
- K.B. Robertson

WINNING THROUGH INTIMIDATION - Ringer
THE UNDECLARED WAR AGAINST AMERICAN WOMEN - Susan Faludi

A MOVEABLE VIETNAM: A Continental Misunderstanding - K.B. Robertson
THE ART OF BEING - Fromm
THE SANE SOCIETY- Fromm
ON BEING HUMAN - Fromm
EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE - Goleman

TRANSFORMING A RAPE CULTURE - Buchwald, Fletcher & Roth

CONSPIRACIES, COVER-UPS & CRIMES:
Political Manipulation & Mind Control In America - J. Vankin

THE ART OF LOVING - Fromm
THE CONQUEST OF HAPPINESS - Bertrand Russell
THE UNREALITY INDUSTRY
The Deliberate Manufacturing Of Falsehoods And What It Is Doing To Our Lives
- Mitroff & Bennis

HOW REAL IS REAL?
Confusion, Disinformation & Communication- Watzlawick
“...let us go down and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” - Genesis 11:7 (Refer, 1984 <NewSpeak & DoubleThink> by George Orwell)

25 YEARS OF CENSORED NEWS - P. Phillips

AGAINST OUR WILL: Men, Women & Rape - Susan Brownmiller

BATTERED & BULLIED WOMEN MAKE BETTER PANCAKES & BURGERS
- K.B. Robertson

ESCAPE FROM FREEDOM - Fromm

THE UNDISCOVERED SELF - Jung

THE INVISIBLE (‘What?’) WAR: A War Of Perception
K.B. Robertson

THE CONQUEST OF THE UNITED STATES
- K.B. Robertson
WHY KAREN SILKWOOD WAS MURDERED - Author unknown

MEMORIES, DREAMS & REFLECTIONS - Jung
MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS - Jung

MAN FOR HIMSELF - Fromm

THE ARCHTYPES & THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS - Jung

WAR and ANTI-WAR: Survival At The Dawn Of The 21st Century
Alvin and Heidi Tofler (Authors of FUTURE SHOCK and THE THIRD WAVE)

Kewel Kukumbers,
- RP

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by RascalPuff In the context of reference, organized warfare is when the culture from which the warriors originate, organizes to train, arm and deploy the military element.

Hey Mr Kewkumber ... this description could be used to describe a bar room brawl ... LOL

I just finished reading all your references ... LOL

I am making a bet here ... $5.00 AUS. posted to any address you care to name, that you have most, if not all, of these books in your library, or in electronic form ...

howzemybetlookin ???

cool bananas ... greg

[RascalPuff]

Hey Bananas:

I'm not betting against you, with the qualification that all of the books are in my conventional hard cover and paperback library.

Your knowledge of warfare and anthropology has proved impressive in the past, though, so far as I can see, not in contention with mine.

Kewel Kewkumbers,
- RP

(P.S. If and when a bar brawl meets the proffered specs, it's organized warfare also.)

[Graybeard]

That deserves a thanks. ... LOL

Well ... If we talk about any warfare then I would say 'Both'

No animal fights unless it has to.

Inherent:
Because we could in theory show an unbroken chain of wars back to the first turf war. Someone might object by pointing out that the combatants in the first turf war had no one to inherit it from. I would reply that it just existed in other forms such as 'pecking order, Alpha males, Alpha females, etc proving that we inherit it from a time prior to conditioning.

Conditioning:
Because we have managed to keep it in pace with technology.


cool bananas ... greg


PS: Hey ... Did you notice that this reply says nothing about the right/wrong of warfare but still answers your question ... its 18 hours into new year here and i am fairly pissed (hic) ... LOL

[RascalPuff]

Originally Posted by Graybeard That deserves a thanks. ... LOL Well ... If we talk about any warfare then I would say 'Both' No animal fights unless it has to. Inherent: Because we could in theory show an unbroken chain of wars back to the first turf war. Someone might object by pointing out that the combatants in the first turf war had no one to inherit it from. I would reply that it just existed in other forms such as 'pecking order, Alpha males, Alpha females, etc proving that we inherit it from a time prior to conditioning. Conditioning: Because we have managed to keep it in pace with technology. cool bananas ... greg PS: Hey ... Did you notice that this reply says nothing about the right/wrong of warfare but still answers your question ... its 18 hours into new year here and i am fairly pissed (hic) ... LOL

Sounds like that's founded in the a priori nature school.

There's a place for it in the topic, whereas, it's natural selection instinct and not organized warfare (acknowledging that humans are animals).

Co-specific aggression is when the same species makes war on itself.
(Specific aggression - violence - is usually for food; when not for food then declaration of territory and very often not to the death...)

I don't expect that's news to you, though.

Humans have the capacity to displace the violence with displays of physical and mental prowess (to determine which mate the female will select), without bringing harm to each other. Animals fighting in context of natural selection usually don't engage in mortal combat, while they determine who is more powerful and/or resilient.

On the other hand, the latent animal instinct of heirarchy organisation can be actively organised - then you have the definition of warfare. Organised warfare - as you are apparently aware - is when an industry - and a society - fortifys it.

Several of the major warmakers were motivated to conquer all, to put an end to war.

A timely example of this is certain interpretations of the Koran (Quoran/Quran), which is motivated to conquer and convert, with the objective of ending war by placing everyone under the same pennant, by force if necessary...

We're 2 1/2 hrs (hic) into 2008 here on the East Coast of the USA.

Would like to here some more from you about this, Greg.

Kewel Kukumbers,
- RP

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by RascalPuff Co-specific aggression is when the same species makes war on itself. (Specific aggression - violence - is usually for food; when not for food then declaration of territory and very often not to the death...) Humans have the capacity to displace the violence with displays of physical and mental prowess (to determine which mate the female will select), without bringing harm to each other. Animals fighting in context of natural selection usually don't engage in mortal combat, while they determine who is more powerful and/or resilient. On the other hand, the latent animal instinct of heirarchy organisation can be actively organised - then you have the definition of warfare. Organised warfare - as you are apparently aware - is when an industry - and a society - fortifys it. Several of the major warmakers were motivated to conquer all, to put an end to war.

It seems you have answered your own question then ... ... An organisation that can be organised ?? Are you tripping over words ??? Don't you just hate it when I read the semantics and not the intent .... LOL

War or threat of war is an agressive act created or implemented to bring about some advantage to the agressor. So what you are really stating is that as it develops in scale and crosses an ill-defined boundary ... (a human label) ... we can say it is organised.

This has to be conditioned ... its our label and we choose to apply it ... therefore it is a conditioned definition.

cool bananas ... greg

This defining line must mean something to you in the line of debate you wish to follow ... What is the line ??

[RascalPuff]

Originally Posted by Graybeard It seems you have answered your own question then ... ... An organisation that can be organised ?? Are you tripping over words ??? Don't you just hate it when I read the semantics and not the intent .... LOL War or threat of war is an agressive act created or implemented to bring about some advantage to the agressor. So what you are really stating is that as it develops in scale and crosses an ill-defined boundary ... (a human label) ... we can say it is organised. This has to be conditioned ... its our label and we choose to apply it ... therefore it is a conditioned definition. cool bananas ... greg This defining line must mean something to you in the line of debate you wish to follow ... What is the line ??

Hey Bananas:
I think you've fairly well covered the chosen field of semantics as well as the intent.

Humans have the sentient ability to transcend aggressive instincts and derail them to preoccupations not intended by Nature. Although it is commonplace to hear that warfare is Nature and not nurture. The organised warfare scenario appears to be a conditioned human preoccupation. I think we agree on this.

Your knowledge on the subject of warfare in general - and what I intend - continues to be impressive.

You've probably noticed that a lot of my blogs accomodate the subject in considerable depth. Mebbe short of global warming, it's the most important unresolved problem on the precariously tentative human agenda. Breaching the issue of warfare with you seems to consistently prove out to be interesting.

Huxley defined civilized people as, 'those who've found something more interesting than sex'.

John Keegan went on to add that this definition includes, 'those who've found something more interesting than violence and/or combat'.

So far, speaking for myself, given my interest in war - it's causes, effects and possible remedies... Apparently Truly Yours has yet to qualify as being civilized.

And, Greg, given what proves to be your interests and accompanying knowledge, we both may be a coupla savages...

Kewl Kewkumbers,
- RP

[Graybeard]

Rascal ...

I would like to define my viewpoint. My viewpoint will always be from the 'Inherant' school (rather than yours the 'Conditioned' school) even as far as 'Organised War'. You and I are the only 2 on this thread so we can take it where we like.

I believe that a final 'The Theory of Everything' will simply be another jigsaw piece in the Theory of Evolution. In others words The Theory of Evolution will explain 'Everything' as opposed to the 'Theory of Everything' which will explain only the mechanical/biological workings of Evolution.

I also believe that Random Natural Selection explains the purpose of Evolution.

Evolution is unbiased. Its compassionless, remorseless and unchangeable. When we believe we have modified it, stepped outside its circle, we suffer a sentinent delusion. If we destroy this planet by greenhouse gas or by War, and somehow I feel its going to be a mixture of both, then you might say how can this be a best-fit for Natural Selection.

Some species will survive, explode into life and diversify, driven by the new wealth of resources available. It has no best-fit. Anything that is a best-fit simply has a longer chance of survival until conditions change, regardless of how that change is bought about.

Now you, Rascal, see some changes as outside