[dleviwing]

Lloyd;
Your quote of Kurt Godel as your signature states it all. All of us at one time or another acquire a wealth of worthless knowledge. Knowing what is worthless knowledge is the key to understanding physical reality. I still believe you have more to discard before achieving your goal, as do I. You are well ahead of most members and only need to take a few more steps out of the academic box.

I do enjoy your posts, even though at time we seem argumentative. It has kept me from becoming too complacent in my views. Our views are not really that far apart.

[humanbydefault]

Recent conclusion in experiments taking place in MINOS have confirmed that previous suspicion observed in Japan inside the super particle accelerator [K] were a fact: Neutrinos do change their energy configuration as they propagate and that could only mean that their mass was not zero.
The thought only takes us to an statement no one dares to sentence yet... The standard model is FLAWED! Just as I have always believed. There is however a wide range of possibilities derived from that amazing result.

ONE>>> Energy of each wave [components of the neutrino beam] does not fuse or mix with the others. That is an important fact that we have learned from the "teachings" of QUANTUM MECHANICS. It is then conclusive that a quantum of energy does not "dilute" into another and does not dissipate [its inherent energy] into the vacuum for no apparent reasons.
TWO>>> We have given them names [Tao-Muon and Electron...] to those diminute quanta based on their different configuration but now we SAW that all depended on the DISTANCE where the [actual] measurement was performed (!)

Now! Let's take "one" and "two" and try to put the pieces together. Using OPEN MIND I have reached a conclusion I'd like to share with the rest of you.
ASSUMING that AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT the density of energy [magnitude of energy by unit of space] were exactly THE SAME!!!
Of course that would mean that we will be able to OBSERVE an "electron-" or a "Tau-" or a "Muon-" at discontinued locations at a given moment. But how about an observation taking place at middle distances?
Those were done but you know what? They have found NOTHING!
I think that nothing meant that energy was there we just couldn't "see" it because those quanta interacted in space cancelling each other off just MOMENTARELY. As soon as the component waves continue with their propagation they change their interacting pattern of configuration "making visible" once again to our apparatus.
This is ladies and gentlemen the true NATURE OF THE ZERO in the Quantum world of ours. Not a perfect void or total absence but a perfect interaction between opposite spinning energies that give us the "ILLUSION" of their disappearance.

HUMANBYDEFAULT

[humanbydefault]

I got this link for you about the same subject. I think it will help me to explain my idea although it's not there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_oscillation

My point was that for some type of quantum ["particles"] there has to be a component of different waves having also different density and spin configuration. I tried to give you this views when I explained the photoelectric effect under a new set of theoretical rules. I saw "photo-electrons" as physical "entities" produced by a transformation of ULTRAVIOLET light [it's energy to be more precise] into a complex structure we observe as "electrons." We used the structure offered by atoms naturally and we facilitated that high energy photons to be absorbed into the spinning atomic pattern [atomic oscillator].
The interesting point in all this is that "electrons" show something we call CHARGE. Charge is due to the spin of energy creating an alternating electrical field and another called magnetic field in the process.
But we know that in order to have those fields we need potential and that also mean a different energy density in space linked one another in the same place. Now we know that the only energy FORCED to BE THERE and not scattered away or dissipated only exist in the QUANTUM WORLD. We have seen that phenomenon in the neutrino oscillation process by now.
So! If "electrons" were [as I see them] a sort of a "in-site" configuration of two different densities of E-M energy "PUT TOGETHER" by atomic oscillators (!) Wouldn't be logical to see why their existence is similar to the existence of the other three type of neutrinos?
The wavelength of electrons are huge compared to that of neutrinos and that could make the observation of their disappearance and their spin change an impossible technically speaking. For us "electrons" are eternal entities with a permanent charge that gives them the FALSE rights to be considered ELEMENTAL PARTICLES... But they are not so!!!
Just as neutrinos are the rest of the catalogue of "human particles" are the "illusion of our apparatus" in a sense. OH! They are real do not misunderstand me! But their reality is space-dependent (!) Imagine the same argument in relationship with LIGHT... (!)
WE WOULD NEED THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IN LENGTH TO BE ABLE TO SEE HOW THE LIGHT FROM STARS CHANGE IN COLORS AND IN INTENSITY ALONG THE WAVELENGTH... That is hard to believe, I know.
Gluons are believed to have "color charge." 1/3? Asymptotic freedom? Negative beta functions? Wouldn't be easier to see the whole picture in a different logical way?

HUMANBYDEFAULT

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Originally Posted by humanbydefault Recent conclusion in experiments taking place in MINOS have confirmed that previous suspicion observed in Japan inside the super particle accelerator [K] were a fact: Neutrinos do change their energy configuration as they propagate and that could only mean that their mass was not zero. The thought only takes us to an statement no one dares to sentence yet... The standard model is FLAWED! Just as I have always believed. There is however a wide range of possibilities derived from that amazing result. ONE>>> Energy of each wave [components of the neutrino beam] does not fuse or mix with the others. That is an important fact that we have learned from the "teachings" of QUANTUM MECHANICS. It is then conclusive that a quantum of energy does not "dilute" into another and does not dissipate [its inherent energy] into the vacuum for no apparent reasons. TWO>>> We have given them names [Tao-Muon and Electron...] to those diminute quanta based on their different configuration but now we SAW that all depended on the DISTANCE where the [actual] measurement was performed (!) Now! Let's take "one" and "two" and try to put the pieces together. Using OPEN MIND I have reached a conclusion I'd like to share with the rest of you. ASSUMING that AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT the density of energy [magnitude of energy by unit of space] were exactly THE SAME!!! Of course that would mean that we will be able to OBSERVE an "electron-" or a "Tau-" or a "Muon-" at discontinued locations at a given moment. But how about an observation taking place at middle distances? Those were done but you know what? They have found NOTHING! I think that nothing meant that energy was there we just couldn't "see" it because those quanta interacted in space cancelling each other off just MOMENTARELY. As soon as the component waves continue with their propagation they change their interacting pattern of configuration "making visible" once again to our apparatus. This is ladies and gentlemen the true NATURE OF THE ZERO in the Quantum world of ours. Not a perfect void or total absence but a perfect interaction between opposite spinning energies that give us the "ILLUSION" of their disappearance. HUMANBYDEFAULT

Very, Very close to the way I see it HBD. You have explained the "jump" in the most effective way to date. This eliminates the need for the super-luminal impossible - thanks. The closest idea I had come across before was Stanley White's change of mass from low orbit to high orbit, I like your's even better, even thought the both together complete the picture_____hey, we're gaining...

As to the standard model, PBS has already done a show about it,[three months ago, or so] with many physicists and cosmologists stating the need of its revision. Many have already revised their opinions. I revised mine a long time ago, about the standard model, after realizing many of its impossible positions, after deeply studying the cosmos, in conjunction with relative and quantum mechanics. Many of the velocity predictions did not add up... Hubble doesn't square with Einstein... Background radiation conflicts with gamma evidence of newest cosmology, done by real physicists, instead of cosmologists_____also on PBS____about two months ago...

I enjoy your posts HBD___keep it up...

regards

p.s.
I have always believed in my own deffinition of the Dirac Sea. You have described it quite closely____say space sub-quantum matter/waves at trillions to the power of trillions, ad infinitum... I like it...

[humanbydefault]

We are able to manufacture neutrinos from inside a particle accelerator... are we? [I mean scientists you know...].
Those neutrinos are believed to be complex waves of yet individual and [naturally] less dense content of energy that when interacting one another in a certain fashion the result would be clear: A type of "particle" at each measurement interval... Those are the facts expressed by them, right?
Now! How could reality would present to us in the case we were able to produce those same waves but this time ENTANGLED and flying in opposite directions? [180 degrees]
Would we able to observe an actual "particle" this time? Think about it! The vacuum required the necessary "fusion" of two or three types of quanta "traveling" together in the same wave format... But how about the possibility of obtaining the same "particle" without one of those waves?
If LOGIC does not betrays us I sincerely doubt that such accomplishment would be far from likely. Then... what were we able to observe?
To begin with I believe that entanglement even at those levels are not just possible but REAL. Finding the answer to that scenario [one that we will be discussing right here in about 10-20 years time?] will deal once again with Einstein's EPR experiment and Bell's theorem I'am affraid...
As I said in the past>>> I know that the vacuum [read the universe] will allow neutrino entanglement to happen in its "kingdom." The question is: once one of the waves collapse what will happen to the "other end"...?
It might seem rather philosophical than physics but it has to do with both "big time." If we considered "matter" or "particles" as ELEMENTAL without considering the real motives for that to be observed the way we have... the two waves left will be then what? Just one type of "particle" [matter] without the observed oscillation? Would an "act of God" imidiately collapse what is left into the one and only possible "particle" terminating the entanglement process?
Using photons the results were pretty convincing... One photons was made to collapse into a photoelectric plaque, but what actually happen with the one that "got away" (?)
We needed to rely on measurement in the search for answers and when we did it we became part of the solution too... We influenced into the outcome of the system by collapsing the "other wave."
It seems that we are banned from actually observing the real puzzle and its true outcome after all.
One thing is perfectly clear to me: Entanglement is not a violation of the laws derived from the true nature of the Eather or vacuum.
Once the entanglement is compromised in one of its two ends we prompt the eather to react on it. It was not a "spooky force at a distance" nor a FTL signal what we were witnesses here, but a logical response to a violation.


HUMANBYDEFAULT

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Originally Posted by humanbydefault Now! Let's take "one" and "two" and try to put the pieces together. Using OPEN MIND I have reached a conclusion I'd like to share with the rest of you. ASSUMING that AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT the density of energy [magnitude of energy by unit of space] were exactly THE SAME!!! Of course that would mean that we will be able to OBSERVE an "electron-" or a "Tau-" or a "Muon-" at discontinued locations at a given moment. But how about an observation taking place at middle distances? Those were done but you know what? They have found NOTHING! I think that nothing meant that energy was there we just couldn't "see" it because those quanta interacted in space cancelling each other off just MOMENTARELY. As soon as the component waves continue with their propagation they change their interacting pattern of configuration "making visible" once again to our apparatus. This is ladies and gentlemen the true NATURE OF THE ZERO in the Quantum world of ours. Not a perfect void or total absence but a perfect interaction between opposite spinning energies that give us the "ILLUSION" of their disappearance.HUMANBYDEFAULT

Here's my extension of your ideas HBD. I completely agree with above, and ask that we theoretically look even deeper at these conclusion. If we be right, then let's imagine the entire Dirac Sea Eather of same sub-quantum wave/particles/waves, whatever, filling the entire infinite space. These sub-quantum waves are just sitting there spinning at the speed of light. Not only would such a reality create a super-highway for all em radiations to travel, but would give the appearence of the spooky action at a distance, as all distance actions, at this level, would be identical. Further, with these standing spherical waves all spinning side by side, before mating, there would be two force sides set up to carry other em waves in, on one side of such spinning waves, and out on the other side of such spinning waves. [Also, when the two quanta you speak of phase together, the outer circumference of each moving to the center of each, would accelerate their motion, to momentarily maybe make them either seem to disappear or actually disappear, for that minute amount of time of uncertainty, and then renormalize rotating velocity.][later addition] Not only does this solve em radiation, of many varied frequencies, it also solves the renormalizationn process of infinities, by doing just as you stated___the creation of the disappearance illusion. So Feyneman's math may be right, after all, and the renormalization trickster unnecessary. When this idea is fully expanded, it can account for gravity and everything else, mechanically acting in our woderful little universe... Correct me if I'm wrong...

What ya think?

regards

[humanbydefault]

You know L.G. I am completely sure that the charge of the electron is motivated by two entangled waves with different density and fused together as a consequence of being "modulated" [like a tv signal] inside the bond formed between one molecule. Something like this:
I "see" a coupling between two atoms as the fusion of two harmonics that spin with opposite relative spin. The term relative is obvious since the faster a quantum of energy spins the higher will be the frequency and the inherent energy moving in a given harmonic. When two atoms get closer to each other and the spin difference is close enough to exert an attractive force between them the bond occurs. It might look like the orbit of Saturn intercepting a similar one in interatomic distances.
Once external energy is absorbed inside the structure of the bond it is somehow transformed [modulated] into a new physical phase "copying" the density of each one into the new quantum that we see as a new electron.
An electron will look from inside like a little magnet with two spinning layers.
Since the NET density of both layers equals the charge of one electron and that is a constant across the vacuum both waves will have no other choice but to stay together looking as a legitimate "particle."
One day physicists will be able to demonstrate that the only possible solution capable of producing a magnetic field and an electric charge with the size of a lepton must be having a complex density also with a polarized space-time component.
I see the structure of "space-time" as directly proportional to the spin and the actual distance from the vortice of the system.
If one wave spin in the outer layer and the other in the one located in the interior of the quantum the net magnetic field will be proportional to the strength of those two waves.

humanbydefault

[timer]

Quantum Hall Effect : discovered in germany(Scientific American article) : fractional charges such as 4/7 ths, 2/5 ths, etc; in conjunction with matter waves. Quark theory : down=-1/3, up=+2/3 fractional charges; a neutron is a d-u-d and proton is a u-d-u. Psychic micro-psi visions of Ledbetter and Bezant(Infinite Energy Magazine article) : 3 sub-quarks make up a quark(the UPA they called it) : involuting/evoluting torus of 10 lines or strings, 3 white, 7 rainbow colored, 2 1/2 twists thru solenoid core, vibrating, beating like a heart; 4/9 ths, 5/9 ths fractional charges. And if an electron(fermion) is a spin 1/2 particle, and a photon(boson)is spin 1, then is a photon composed of two electrons? And is this dark energy, which supposedly composes 2/3 rds of the universe, just "tired light"? To wit, photons don't die, like old soldiers they just slowly slowly fade away