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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time?
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time? - 01-16-2008, 03:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Graybeard View Post
John ... I usually get myself into trouble whenever I mix time and QM ... and so I steer clear of it. But I do like your post ... very well thought out.

cool bananas ... greg
Thank you again for the kind words. It make me feel as if I might be stirring up some of the gray mass out there today. That is a good thing as this place has been doing same for me for a while now. It seems I always have an idea I want to explain. Some days are just better than others at finding the right words. This evening I will go to my dance class and have a bit of fun. Will return tomorrow morn.
Have a good evening!
John


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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time?
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time? - 01-17-2008, 11:56 AM

Hello, new friends @ ToeQ, Re: NOW

This is my first effort here, and I'd meant to say silent longer, but John's post of the 15th looks like found treasure, amplifying a question I've been been working on for a while, first floated in 1998 I think, that led to a (rejected) paper, now buried at

http://home.earthlink.net/~dbscr/pler/Qm-plik4.htm "Time for Eternity"

The essential idea is that the existence of the Planck constant (and specifically the Planck unit of time) implies that in any physical concept, "time" is granular, or interrupted, i.e. nonlocality is "pulsed", and presumably so is the primal Energy. So the conjecture is that physicality is re-created in a series of Planck-time ticks ("plicks"), thus imposing a speed limit for light, and the limit of "resolution" of physicality itself.

So indeed, though born at the same time, the hand as seen in front of my face is younger than the eye which sees it. Not only that, it takes a while (a "growing block" of plicks) for my brain-mechanism(s) [on the order of milliseconds] to integrate its input into "consciousness". So the perspective of cosmos as a growing block strikes me as very helpful -- and presumably varying states of consciousness focus on blocks of different "size".

I my view, on the Wkp article cited the rebuttal argument is not only weak but no argument at all . Thanks for the post.

Don
  
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time?
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time? - 01-17-2008, 01:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Don View Post
Hello, new friends @ ToeQ, Re: NOW

This is my first effort here, and I'd meant to say silent longer, but John's post of the 15th looks like found treasure, amplifying a question I've been been working on for a while, first floated in 1998 I think, that led to a (rejected) paper, now buried at

http://home.earthlink.net/~dbscr/pler/Qm-plik4.htm "Time for Eternity"

The essential idea is that the existence of the Planck constant (and specifically the Planck unit of time) implies that in any physical concept, "time" is granular, or interrupted, i.e. nonlocality is "pulsed", and presumably so is the primal Energy. So the conjecture is that physicality is re-created in a series of Planck-time ticks ("plicks"), thus imposing a speed limit for light, and the limit of "resolution" of physicality itself.

So indeed, though born at the same time, the hand as seen in front of my face is younger than the eye which sees it. Not only that, it takes a while (a "growing block" of plicks) for my brain-mechanism(s) [on the order of milliseconds] to integrate its input into "consciousness". So the perspective of cosmos as a growing block strikes me as very helpful -- and presumably varying states of consciousness focus on blocks of different "size".

I my view, on the Wkp article cited the rebuttal argument is not only weak but no argument at all . Thanks for the post.

Don
Hello Don:
Welcome to Toequest! Thank you for your interest.
It seems we may be almost neighbors. I am in the north east corner of Aiken county just south and east of you.
I found some of your writings, I will bet your ideas will also help me to further define my own.
We got some very rare snow and ice here last night, but gone already. How did you do up your way?
John.


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Special Relativity Consideration
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Special Relativity Consideration - 02-01-2008, 09:20 PM



I thought I would try to use a sketch that I did using the standard Paint program with Windows. The idea above is to emphasize a concept of Special Relativity wherein different observers in motion with respect to each other actually experience different cross-section views of the 4-D spacetime structure. For example, in this sketch, a guy is moving in a blue rocket with respect to another guy moving in a red rocket. The black coordinate system is occupied by observers sitting at rest (blue and red move in opposite directions at the same speed). The space experienced by the guy in the blue rocket is rotated up, counter-clockwise from the rest system's X1 axis (time flows along the X4 axis). The 3-D cross-section view (just one spatial dimension, X1, shown here) of the red rocket is rotated down, clockwise from the rest system black X1 coordinate. This is the essence of Einstein's Special Relativity theoretical discovery (Minkowski provided this geometrical description).

The strange thing about this concept: If each one is experiencing different views of a 4-D universe, then the whole 4-D structure must be there all of the time so no matter what your motion, there is a cross-section of universe always available for an observer with any velocity to view. Of course our cross-section views of the 4-D universe are 3-dimensional--I just include one of the spatial dimensions in the sketch.

But if all of the universe material structure is all there, at all times, as a static 4-D structure, who or what is doing the moving as time flows? No material substances can be moving if it's all in a static 4-D state. The common terminology in Special Relativity is that all observers move along the direction of their 4th dimension at the speed of light. Again, how is an observer moving? Observers are made of material substance and is therefore just part of the 4-D static material structure. Could it be consciousness associated with some undetected medium in motion at the speed of light along the 4th dimension?

I've drawn a couple of different sketches to indicate how the different cross-section views result in different lengths of an object, depending on how a given observer's spatial axis is rotated. Notice in the lower left sketch how the blue rocket's X1 axis, at one instant of time, cuts across a longer length for his own blue rocket as compared to the shorter length cutting across the red rocket (it's called length contraction in Special Relativity).

Notice that the photon 4-D world line bisects the angle between the 4th dimension and the X1 spatial dimension for all observers, no matter what their velocity. That's why the speed of light is observed to be the same constant for all observers (the ratio, X1/X4 = 1.0, or X1/ct = 186,000 mi/sec).

You can see how to derive the Lorentz transformation for time dilation using just the Pythorean theorem.


Action #1: An electron goes from place to place
Action #2: A photon goes from place to place
Action #3: An electron emits or absorbs a photon
(Richard P. Feynman)
  
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Re: Special Relativity Consideration
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Re: Special Relativity Consideration - 02-02-2008, 12:07 PM

Sorry I got in a hurry and messed up on the ratio, X1/X4. I meant to leave out the c in the denominator for the speed of light. It should have gone (for a photon of light whose 4-D world line always bisects the angle between X4 and X1):

X1/X4 = 1.0

Distance along the 4th dimension, X4, is speed of light times time, so

X1/ct = 1.0

Therefore, multiplying both sides of this last equation by c, we have the speed of a photon of light:

X1/t = c = 186,000 mi/sec


Action #1: An electron goes from place to place
Action #2: A photon goes from place to place
Action #3: An electron emits or absorbs a photon
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time?
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time? - 02-03-2008, 01:02 AM

Hello Nomad:
It seems we may have handled some of the same equipment from time to time. I spent quite a lot of time at the ITEK facility in Lexington Mass. If you were involved with vibration testing and the Shuttle, I am sure you are familiar with ITEK.
I appreciate the efforts you put into that marvelous post. It truly shows the complexities that we are facing.
It is these very complexities that make me search for a simpler answer. I am not the only one that feels that these complexities that defy us to understand what is happening around us are the result of trying to fix the problems we encounter by using the same tools that we used to create them. I think you may find an echo of someone that has always inspired me in that statement.


You have come to the conclusion that the 4 dimensional existence medium is there all of the time without regard to the observer. The static state that we observe however is the 3 dimensional state of space.
This state of 3 dimensional space is non volatile without time. It is a solid unmoving thing. When the 4th dimension of time is added to this state there is either of at least the following two things that must take place. Either each state is a time frame of creation that is also a solid that contains the changes that take place at the point of creation / NOW or the 4th dimension time, somehow makes space become volatile so as to allow motion by making a place of space in each instance of time so that 2 objects can now occupy the same space as long as it is a different time. In either or any case it appears to me that time must flow in packets and be subject to a minimum quantum size in the same way as does the matter that moves through it.
Also if it is a being that moves through space then that being as a single dimensional being must exist relative to only one clock. That being the time in which it exists as a single dimensional existence.
Are there different size frames relative to the contents of the space? It appears that different items require a different size quantum of time. A being in a human body to be subject to only one clock at a time must be about 10 nanoseconds. This is a very large single frame when compared to some of the measurements that we are capable of.

The awareness of time can not be a true awareness for if it were not there we could not detect that fact because we would not be. Being is a verb. A being exists in time. So without time we do not exist and can not sense a measure that does not contain time for we would not be there to measure it. So I think that when we experience time it is our being that we experience. Our being must be relative to the time, But it must be the being that we experience as time. We know that something is present by the relative absents of same at other times. Yet we can never relate to an absents of time for we would not exist to observe its absents.

Space is a place for matter to be. Time is a place for a being to be.

Now I wish to look at a snapshot of our existence medium.
We as the observer are always at the center no matter how many observers that there are and it does not make any difference how far apart they are. We observe an edge that moves away from us at the speed of light. The distance to this edge can be defined as a finite number. The same finite number for all observers.
It is also said that the edge is accelerating. Yet the edge is always at the speed of light it does not get faster. It does not get to be a greater or lesser distance. It is always the same number. The amount of time it takes for light to travel this distance is the period of existence for this existence medium.

If we measure it again next year will there be a year more or less than there is now?
We claim that our existence medium is finite with a beginning and an end. Yet the numbers NEVER CHANGE, they are always the same tomorrow, next year, next millenium. They are always the same finite numbers. Are these infinitely finite numbers. Are we then truly in a steady state. Of endless frames of existence.

When I look about, It looks like the land of OZ, I don’t think we are in Kansas anymore.

It must be that NOW truly is the point of creation. Then again maybe if we follow the yellow brick road a bit more we may find a place where everything makes sense again.
John


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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time?
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time? - 02-03-2008, 01:32 PM

Appreciated your post, Everymansmedium. Yes, I did encounter ITEK from time to time. We put together a modal test system for testing the Orbiter in the OPF or on the launch pad at Kennedy Space Center (I was based out of Houston, JSC). Our control room with computers and data acquisition system was in an Air Stream house trailer. Another trailer was used to haul shakers, power amps and other ancillary equipment. We used PCB signal conditioning, Zonic data acquisition and multi-shaker FRF post-processing, etc., along with HP workstations. We were given a 24 hour window to do the modal test. I also did finite element models and merged the modal test model with the FEM to do damage detection after flights (started with before-flight baseline modal test and FEM).

You put a lot of ideas out there. At some point I realized my brain had missed a turn in the road (or the road was continuing straight when I swerved). I've got to study your ideas. You are quite creative in your thinking.

I didn't mean to leave time out of the picture in my previous post. The established picture in the usual presentation of Special Relativity has every observer moving straight forward along his own 4th dimension (time axis) at the spead of light. I was just raising the question of who or what is really doing the moving, since the spacetime diagrams of Special Relativity always imply that all material structure (including physical living bodies, i.e., brain neurons, etc.) must be configured as static 4-D structures. Therefore the material bodies could not be in motion. The only thing left to move would be something we don't yet understand--that embodies consciousness. Perhaps something like a wave of consciousness, moving at the speed of light along the 4th dimension--maybe it's a universal consciousness, maybe there are just local consciousnesses associated with each individual brain).

It's exactly analogous to watching a movie. But, instead of the movie film strip moving through the projector, our consciousness flies at the speed of light along the 4th dimension watching a stream of a continuous sequence of 3-D frames. Each frame may be separated by a Planck time (10^-43 sec), although the frequency response of our consciousness averages out the sequence to yield the impression of a continuous flow of time. Maybe that's the kind of thing Einstein had in mind when he referred to reality as an illusion.


Action #1: An electron goes from place to place
Action #2: A photon goes from place to place
Action #3: An electron emits or absorbs a photon
(Richard P. Feynman)
  
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time?
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time? - 02-04-2008, 03:06 PM

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Originally Posted by nomad View Post
Appreciated your post, Everymansmedium. Yes, I did encounter ITEK from time to time. We put together a modal test system for testing the Orbiter in the OPF or on the launch pad at Kennedy Space Center (I was based out of Houston, JSC). Our control room with computers and data acquisition system was in an Air Stream house trailer. Another trailer was used to haul shakers, power amps and other ancillary equipment. We used PCB signal conditioning, Zonic data acquisition and multi-shaker FRF post-processing, etc., along with HP workstations. We were given a 24 hour window to do the modal test. I also did finite element models and merged the modal test model with the FEM to do damage detection after flights (started with before-flight baseline modal test and FEM).

You put a lot of ideas out there. At some point I realized my brain had missed a turn in the road (or the road was continuing straight when I swerved). I've got to study your ideas. You are quite creative in your thinking.

I didn't mean to leave time out of the picture in my previous post. The established picture in the usual presentation of Special Relativity has every observer moving straight forward along his own 4th dimension (time axis) at the spead of light. I was just raising the question of who or what is really doing the moving, since the spacetime diagrams of Special Relativity always imply that all material structure (including physical living bodies, i.e., brain neurons, etc.) must be configured as static 4-D structures. Therefore the material bodies could not be in motion. The only thing left to move would be something we don't yet understand--that embodies consciousness. Perhaps something like a wave of consciousness, moving at the speed of light along the 4th dimension--maybe it's a universal consciousness, maybe there are just local consciousnesses associated with each individual brain).

It's exactly analogous to watching a movie. But, instead of the movie film strip moving through the projector, our consciousness flies at the speed of light along the 4th dimension watching a stream of a continuous sequence of 3-D frames. Each frame may be separated by a Planck time (10^-43 sec), although the frequency response of our consciousness averages out the sequence to yield the impression of a continuous flow of time. Maybe that's the kind of thing Einstein had in mind when he referred to reality as an illusion.
Hello nomad:
Sorry about the delay. It seems as of lately I have a bit less time to spend here. Though I am retired from contract assignments, My own work is now getting out of control and becoming more of a task then the contracting was. My time with ITEK was 1983 through 1987. I was at Measurements systems division. (MSD) MSD was involved with optical encoders. My main project there was an SDI project. 12 – 21 bit encoders. 8 of these were for flight the others were development units and qualifiers. This resulted in 4 x-y positioners. One of these, I think, was lost in the shuttle crash along with one of our large format cameras. So I guess that you were handling the systems, may have seen some of the things that helped to support me and my family also. It was interesting times. We spent many nights talking about the very subject material we talk about here, while waiting for a T-VAC chamber to come to temp so we could perform a test.

My thoughts on the development of a TOE or a UFT (I see these as 2 separate issues.) are based on my feeling that we have an error in the past that has become part of the tool box that we use to define and understand our physical existence medium. If this is the case then we are trying to fix a problem by using the same tools as the tools that we used to create the problem. There is a list of thoughts that I call the “Principals of the acceptance of a concept by the scientific community.”
Note: I did not generate any of these principals. I simply post the list as I found them at:

http://www.physicsnews1.com/


The Authority Principle
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.

Galileo Galilei - 1626

The Acceptance Principle
No concept shall attain acceptance without firm and logical support nor retain that acceptance after the loss of such support.


The Advancement Principle
The advancement of physics always involves the destruction of the majority opinion.

Samuel Ting - 2003


The Six Stages Of Truth
Stage 1: The truth is revealed.
Stage 2: The truth is ignored.
Stage 3: The truth is ridiculed.
Stage 4: The truth is violently opposed.
Stage 5: The truth is tolerated while awaiting a general changing of the guard.
Stage 6: The truth is accepted as logical and self-evident.

Stages 3, 4, & 6, Arthur Schopenhauer - 1850
Stages 1, 2, & 5, Ethan Skyler - 2004


The Lost-Logic Principle
Once an illogical concept is accepted within a science as true, the science itself becomes illogical. As long as the original illogical concept is retained, it is not possible to restore logic to the science as a whole since future concepts accepted within the science must be equally illogical to remain compatible with the original. Thus logic and progress become forever lost to the science until such time as all illogical concepts, including the original, are correctly identified and set aside.

The Confusion Principle
The more complex and confusing the solution, the less likely it will face proper challenge and the more likely it will one day be proven incorrect.


If you look at each one of these and think about the situation that we are in presently, you will see that there is not much thought given to these concepts. It appears to me at this point that our community should read and think about, The Advancement Principle, The stages of truth, The Lost-Logic Principle, and The Confusion Principle.
Now I will give you one more principal of my own:
“The older error principal.”
“The older an error is, the more difficult it will be to find and the greater will be the changes that are needed to fix the problem.” EMM.

I am sorry about the confusion that I sometimes create by trying to put too much information in a single communication. This has always been an attribute of what I write. I guess it is relative to the way that I think. I have better results of people understanding me when I go over my writing and spread out each individual thought. This typically generates 3 or 4 times as many words as the original document. I am in the process of learning how to write so that I will be understood. It seems that this is a much more difficult task for me than the original writing of the concepts. I was the one that was always asked to write the incident documents in the test log. You know, as short as possible but covering all the bases, easy to understand was not a requirement.

The thoughts that lead me to my present feeling about the TOE was best summed up by a document that I had registered with the L.O.C. in 1987. This document is posted on line just as it was written, still containing the same typos and misspellings. I kept it this way so that it was obviously not changed sense 1987.
http://unit-unity-community.com/UUC.txt
This document lead to my feeling that our primary force is a bipole.
As:
Gravity(space,matter,energy) – Continue(time,being,creation)
The idea of CONTINUE as a constant at the basis of life and also of time itself is the motivating thought that shows many more coincidental occurrences of compliance to this idea than it is possible to generate by random occurrence alone. There is obviously something related to this idea that is either behind the thoughts that have been documented by mankind all through out history or the idea of probability itself has gone wrong in this area. If you follow this concept to a conclusion you will answer all of the questions that mankind has ever asked. The problem with this is that the tool box that we use to understand the existing principals of physics may now be in question back to the point of deciding that gravity is a monopole.

I have been living with these thoughts now for 38 years. It actually began in 1970 though I did not share anything until 1987. When I registered “Unit Unity Community”.

Presently the predicate that indicates this idea is as follows: The membrane is as might be generated by M-theory. Though I do not have the ability to generate the math as is used by M-theory it is quite common that there are many such membranes of 11 dimensions with 2 existence mediums and a membrane as the interface that have been defined by people that work in this arena. The best that I can do is to form the domain for a system of prolog to check for logic and symmetry by the use of predicate calculus.
The other thing that I should mention is that the membrane must have a twist as is found in a Mobius strip.
I found these things by trying to create an environment for my AI, Robot operating system executive (ROSE).

The Membrane =


Bipole(membrane (side(gravity(space,matter,energy)3)),

(edge(continue(time,being,creation)1)),

(side(continue(time,being,creation)3)),

(edge(gravity(space,matter,energy)1)))).


John.


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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time?
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time? - 03-26-2008, 01:20 PM

I have used this thread to post this because I think it contains some of the best preliminary thoughts that lead up to this post.

I am aware that this thought can never be anything but speculation in the eyes of the physics community.
The reason for this is that it indicates creation, and the concept of creation is non-deterministic. Thus resulting in a paradox of understanding.
Because of this, it will be necessary to wait until quantum physics realizes that the observation that they have already indicated as a CAUSE, of change, resulting in the many worlds theory and other thoughts to explain this phenomena, is exactly the same phenomena that I speak of here in this document.

If it is decided by our administrator, that a change in subject heading is necessary, might I suggest time space.

In the beginning was the first observation that resulted with the creation of space, at the point that was, NOW, at that time. The very first (10^-43 sec) quantum period observation resulted in the creation at the rate of being/observation = creation * C^2. This resulted in a universe with an edge that was traveling at C. in the very next (10^-43 sec) quantum observation another universe was created and overlapped the first. This second observation did not start at a dimensionless point as the first did but at a volume. This volume requires more time to fill with space that did the first. This results with a universe that has an edge that travels at slightly less than C. The result of this continued creation is the ability to see the reflected light from the edge of the earliest universes because they are older and have had more time to expand. This makes them visible beyond the edge of the more recent universes that have not had as much time to expand.
The edge of each successive universe starts with a larger volume, resulting in an edge that is traveling at a slower rate than the last, because the latest universes have had less time to expand. the older ones are always visible beyond the edge of the more recent. It is this phenomena, that results in the observation that we see as the red shift.
This should appear as if there is an accelerating expansion of space that should result with a curve that is representative of the difference between the volume of the sphere and the surface area of the sphere.

Note the initial expansion speed sets an initial velocity that the edge of the universe maintains. The creation is no longer in the older universes. As soon as a new universe is created the older ones simply maintain the set speed for their expansion. The more recent creations take place at more than one location as there is more than one observation point. All observation points must be within the creation volume. It is this creation volume that results in the successively slower speed of the edge of the most recent creation.


This observation is an allusion. If you were to try to travel toward the edge as you do the continued successive creation of universes will center on where ever the observation location is. This observation is at the location of each being. Each being results with at least
(being=creation) The total of all beings = (being=creation * C^2)


This is all relative to a multiverse with 2 existence mediums, each being the physical mirror of the other.

Gravity is not a true force it is a reaction to the creation of space and the presents of mass in a space field.

There is yet to explain matter and its related forces. This may be easier now with a new foundation for space and time


MPBF = Multiversal Primary Bipolar Force. This is the I AM.
Eden is our existence medium.
Elsewhen is an existence medium that is the mirror image of our own.
Life is the Image of the MPBF, The I AM.
Medge = Membrane edge
Mside = Membrane side
The membrane is shaped as a loop with a single twist as in a Mobius strip.
Planck time (10^-43 sec).



The predicate description.

MPBF(Eden(Mside(space(matter,energy)3)),(Medge(tim e(being,creation)1))),
Elsewhen(Medge(space(matter,energy)1)),(Mside(time (being,creation)3)))).

Now I need to rest and go dancing
John


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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time?
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Re: Growing_block_universe quantum time? - 03-28-2008, 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by everymansmedium View Post

I am aware that this thought can never be anything but speculation in the eyes of the physics community.
The reason for this is that it indicates creation, and the concept of creation is non-deterministic. Thus resulting in a paradox of understanding.
Because of this, it will be necessary to wait until quantum physics realizes that the observation that they have already indicated as a CAUSE, of change, resulting in the many worlds theory and other thoughts to explain this phenomena, is exactly the same phenomena that I speak of here in this document.

John
This is just a heads up for the Saturday chat.
Relative to this thought. I might consider a topic of:
"Is observation a cause?"
More precisely this question is stated:

When superposition collapses into a specifically defined state, is this change THE RESULT OF, Quantum measurement/observation?
OR IS IT:
Coincidentally at the exact moment of the quantum measurement/observation?

If you believe that it is coincidental, what then do you believe the probabilities are that it is the result of a random occurrence coinciding with observation 100% of the time.


Note this is meant to be a verbal discussion of this thought
John.


Creator of Silence.
  
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