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Thread: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

  1. #11
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Yeah... I'd like to see this too, I'm something of an Einstein buff, you see.
    Emily: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
    Stage Manager: No. *pauses* The physicists and mathematicians, maybe they do some.

  2. #12
    6th degree Black Belt Vincent Wee-Foo's Avatar
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by vacuum-mechanics View Post
    Dear Vincent Wee-Foo,

    - Would you please give more detail about “Einstein’s space-time vortex model, published as GR in 1916”?
    Hi Nimit,

    Please have a look at a UVS topic on "The vortex legacy of Einstein", this is the full version with more details for my last post in this thread that was excerpted from there. You might want to investigate rotational frame-dragging effect more closely, also have a look at a UVS topic on "Cyclonic gravity field effect" that could be linked from there.

    See also "Space-time Vortex" by NASA. It elaborates on a GP-B experiment done in space to detect the frame-dragging effect of Einstein's universe. However, the experiment had encountered unexpected difficulties and its finding has not been conclusive since. At 650km away from Earth, with the gravity effect reduced by square of distant, the force they are trying to measure is extremely minuscule.

    IMHO, Foucault's pendulum could be a scientific proof for rotational frame-dragging effect. See a topic on "Visualization of differential rotation with Foucault's pendulum".




    - Have you read Frank Wilczek (a Nobel Prize winner in physics 2004) book - “The Lightness of Being (Mass, Ether, and the Unification of forces)” which talk about Einstein and aether?

    Sincerely,
    Nimit
    I have not read Frank Wilczek book. Visited the summary page and chapter 1 and find it very interesting, and agreed with him that when matter is measured by mass and photon are deemed as weightless and with such division there would be no way to link them.

    "The best way to address the big ultimate questions is likely to be through dialogue with Nature. We must pose pointed sub-questions that give Nature a chance to respond with meaningful answers, in particular with answers that might surprise us." - Frank Wilczek

    I totally agree with him on the above quoted. I also agree with him on multiplicity of space-filling ethers and "mass emerges". Can you please tell me did he postulate a pull gravity like he had suggested in Chapter 1 of his book?

    Best regards,

    ~ vincent
    Universal Vortical Singularity
    "It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Cited by Albert Einstein
    "The entire universe is apparently paradoxical." - UVS inspired
    "All physical existences are weaved in vortical motion; nothing physical in nature is not vortical." - UVS inspired
    "Through knowing the paradoxical effect of nature, it enlightens on how nature does wonders in a complexly inverse manner." - UVS inspired

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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    He doesn't postulate that an invariant aether exists.

    He specifically states that an invariant aether cannot be a physical reality, and subsumed the concept of an aether into the structure of spacetime.

    He didn't explain time dilation as an optical illusion either.

    There's more I could go into, but I'll let you respond first.
    Emily: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by PoPpAScience View Post
    It was so amazing to read this lecture by Albert Einstein in 1920. Here I was listening to people write how Einstein was against the idea of an Aether, which I did not believe. Then here it was, in his own words; Aether and Relativity

    His belief can best be summed up in his own words:

    "Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable inedia, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it."

    It is a joy to see once again, Einstein seeing past the the mainstream science of his day, into the science that mainstream science today is still trying to catch up with.
    Dear PoPpAScience,

    According to Frank Wilczek (a Nobel Prize winner in physics 2004) recent book - “The Lightness of Being (Mass, Ether, and the Unification of forces)”, what he has talked about Einstein’s aether is – “Einstein’s relationship with the aether was complex and changed over time “!

    Anyway, it is very difficult to know exactly what Einstein thought about aether because there was no detail explanation. So what is more important and we should consider is “how to merge something (aether) into the conventional SRT and GTR (which based on nothing – empty space-time)”!

    One way to derive aether based STR and GTR is to use the concept which I called “Vacuum mechanics” (i.e. the mechanism of vacuum medium). Detail explanation was done in my papers title “Completed special theory of relativity (CSTR)” and “Completed general theory of relativity (CGTR)”respectively.

    By the way, the new STR (CSTR) has the advantage that it can solve the philosophical problems of the conventional STR such as in creasing mass, length contraction and time dilation in a more rational way!

    Also the new GTR (CGTR) could explain the philosophical problems of the conventional GTR such as “how empty space could be curved”! Detail explanation of CSTR and CGTR please visit www.vacuum-mechanics.com .

    Sincerely,
    Nimit

  5. #15
    6th degree Black Belt Vincent Wee-Foo's Avatar
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    He doesn't postulate that an invariant aether exists.

    He specifically states that an invariant aether cannot be a physical reality, and subsumed the concept of an aether into the structure of spacetime.
    Hi Max,

    Within the box of GR with its definitions for the assumptions, I have no issue with what you have mentioned above.

    He didn't explain time dilation as an optical illusion either.
    "In special relativity, the time dilation effect is reciprocal: as observed from the point of view of any two clocks which are in motion with respect to each other, it will be the other party's clock that is time dilated. ", "In the special theory of relativity, a moving clock is found to be ticking slowly with respect to the observer's clock. If Sam and Abigail are on different trains in near-lightspeed relative motion, Sam measures (by all methods of measurement) clocks on Abigail's train to be running slowly and, similarly, Abigail measures clocks on Sam's train to be running slowly.", "Symmetric time dilation occurs with respect to temporal coordinate systems set up in this manner. It is an effect where another clock is being viewed as running slowly by an observer. Observers do not consider their own clock time to be time-dilated, but may find that it is observed to be time-dilated in another coordinate system.". Excerpts from Wikipedia on "Time dilation" and in a section at "Time dilation is symmetric between two inertial observers".

    Einstein has a thought experiment for time dilation effect, he intellectually visualized if he recedes from a clock at the speed of light, the clock would freeze while a clock with him continues to tick. There is no issue on the clock that is observed by Einstein to be frozen would continue to tick while Einstein is receding at the speed of light.

    IMHO, all the above describe that the time dilation effect of SR is merely an optical illusion of relative motion that has no physical significance.

    Kind regards,

    ~ vincent
    Universal Vortical Singularity
    "It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Cited by Albert Einstein
    "The entire universe is apparently paradoxical." - UVS inspired
    "All physical existences are weaved in vortical motion; nothing physical in nature is not vortical." - UVS inspired
    "Through knowing the paradoxical effect of nature, it enlightens on how nature does wonders in a complexly inverse manner." - UVS inspired

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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    SR was just an approximation of GR in flat spacetime.

    Spacetime is not perfectly flat, and SR is only fully valid in flat spacetime.

    GR incorporates SR into a structure which can operate in curved spacetimes, and for accelerated observers.

    An accelerated observer will undergo time dilation which is not an illusion of relative motion.

    Quote Originally Posted by That same wiki article
    In contrast, gravitational time dilation (as treated in general relativity) is not reciprocal: an observer at the top of a tower will observe that clocks at ground level tick slower, and observers on the ground will agree. Thus gravitational time dilation is agreed upon by all observers, independent of their altitude.
    The SR example is for an idealised set of observers in uniform relative motion, an unreal assumption.
    Emily: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
    Stage Manager: No. *pauses* The physicists and mathematicians, maybe they do some.

  7. #17
    6th degree Black Belt Vincent Wee-Foo's Avatar
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    SR was just an approximation of GR in flat spacetime.
    SR is just an approximation of GR in flat spacetime is merely a resolution issue; it is not the issue on passive or active transformation. In mathematical relativism, it is claimed that in SR an observer moving in relative velocity undergoes active transformation, time is elastic and passes at a slower rate under such circumstances; elastic time is postulated in mathematical relativism. This elastic time is extrapolated into GR to maintain uniformity for the theory of relativity in mathematical constructs.

    Time dilation effect in SR refers to uniform relative motion. In mathematical relativism it is deduced with Lorentz transformation that time dilation effect is an active transformation that have physical significant. With mathematical deduction for the twin paradox thought experiment that only involves constant motion it was analytically deduced that time dilatation effect is an active transformation with reference to proper time.

    Einstein instead had provided a GR solution to the twin paradox problem that involves active transformation for inertia observer and therefore concluded that the paradox does not exist with his solution.


    Spacetime is not perfectly flat, and SR is only fully valid in flat spacetime.
    I believe you are referring to geodesic of the spacetime with a coordinate system in Lorentz manifold, but this is again a resolution issue and not the active or passive transformation issue.

    GR incorporates SR into a structure which can operate in curved spacetimes, and for accelerated observers.

    An accelerated observer will undergo time dilation which is not an illusion of relative motion.
    Gravitational time dilation in GR with curved spacetime is equivalent in principle with SR for an accelerated observer; they would produce the same result of active transformation that has physical significant. There is no issue here.

    Although Einstein had illustrated with GR to conclude that there is active transformation occurring for gravitational time dilation that has physical significant, he specifically mentioned slower ticking clock in his examples; he did not mention that time would pass slower in higher gravitational potential.

    It is the mathematical relativists who had made the claimed through hypothetical constructs that time passes at different rates in regions of a different gravitational potential; the higher the local distortion of spacetime due to gravity, the slower time passes.


    “Since the mathematicians have invaded the theory of relativity,
    I do not understand it myself anymore.”
    – Albert Einstein

    In applied science active transformation was proven for gravitational time dilation and GPS has to be offset for this, otherwise the result would not be as accurate. Mathematical relativists claims that this is the scientific proof for their mathematical constructs with the postulation of a variant time that would pass at different rates in regions of a different gravitational potential.

    After some clarification with you on time dilation effect of SR, I would then go into the details for gravitational time dilation of GR for its active transformation, and address the validity for the assumptions of mathematical relativism. For now, please focus on the issue for time dilation effect of SR in uniform relative motion.


    The SR example is for an idealised set of observers in uniform relative motion, an unreal assumption.
    Are you claiming the time dilation effect as described with the thought experiment created by Einstein for SR with relative velocity at speed of light is invalid? Kindly elaborate and clarify on this. This is a key issue; this issue needs to be clarified so further discussion could be meaningful.

    Kind regards,


    ~ vincent
    Universal Vortical Singularity
    "It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Cited by Albert Einstein
    "The entire universe is apparently paradoxical." - UVS inspired
    "All physical existences are weaved in vortical motion; nothing physical in nature is not vortical." - UVS inspired
    "Through knowing the paradoxical effect of nature, it enlightens on how nature does wonders in a complexly inverse manner." - UVS inspired

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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Einstein himself said that it is merely an approximation in a hypothetical flat spacetime, after he formulated GR.

    As far as "it is just the clock slowing", Einstein goes to great lengths to specify the conditions and construction of the clock in such a manner that there is no question that it is merely a physical change of the clock, nor merely an optical illusion of motion.

    This is why he uses the light clock example, the only way to reconcile a light clock with it's beam of light traversing an invariant distance at invariant velocity being observed to run slow, is the observer moving through time in a dilated fashion.

    The fully symmetric nature of the effects in SR should be the first sign that it is just an approximation of reality, and that a richer description is needed to explain that time dilation is not symmetric between any observers who aren't in the very unrealistic situation of invariant relative motion within a flat spacetime metric.
    Emily: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
    Stage Manager: No. *pauses* The physicists and mathematicians, maybe they do some.

  9. #19
    6th degree Black Belt Vincent Wee-Foo's Avatar
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Hi Max,

    Thanks for your reply that is focused on time dilation effect, and I must say I admire people like yourself who go out all the way to investigate nature and seek for answers to know the secrets of our universe.

    I would be straight forward in my reply to you questions, under the understanding that our discussions would be mutually beneficial. In all due respect i seek to learn from you in our exchange with posts in this wonderful thread. And please pardon me in case I use sharp words that is not my intention at all for our discussions, sometimes I could use strong words out of anguish or frustration without realizing it at the moment of event. If that does occur please give me a nudge and I shall be aware and then be more careful on the concerned issue.

    In fact I have already learn from you on how did mathematical relativist came to the conclusion that time dilation effect is an active transformation, I could never have spot this angle of view by myself this soon and TY.


    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    Einstein himself said that it is merely an approximation in a hypothetical flat spacetime, after he formulated GR.
    IMHO, this is not relevant as far the query on active or passive transformation is concern in our discussion; this is merely an approximation issue in a hypothetical flat spactime and it does not alter the type of transformation involved.

    As far as "it is just the clock slowing", Einstein goes to great lengths to specify the conditions and construction of the clock in such a manner that there is no question that it is merely a physical change of the clock, nor merely an optical illusion of motion.

    This is why he uses the light clock example, the only way to reconcile a light clock with it's beam of light traversing an invariant distance at invariant velocity being observed to run slow, is the observer moving through time in a dilated fashion.
    The light clock example is a simple inference to illustrate time dilation effect of SR; this clock is fiddled to quantitatively illustrate the time dilation effect. It shows how this clock when moving in uniform velocity would physically slow and an inertial observer could optically observe it. In this light clock example, both observers in relative motion would still measure it is the other party’s clock that is time dilated; symmetric time dilation does occur for this light clock example. This time dilation effect example is indifferent with Einstein thought experiment of him receding from a clock at the speed of light; it is merely different types of hypothetical construct to illustrate qualitatively with one example and quantitatively with the other example for passive transformation of time dilation effect.

    This light clock example of Einstein merely illustrates comprehensively on how the proper time with the moving observer could be observed to be time dilated by an inertial observer. Mathematical relativism assumed that this light clock represents all type of electromagnetic clocks from old-fashioned grandfather clocks to atomic clocks and therefore has claimed that time passes slower for the observer in motion. Qualitatively this assumption is not true; it is logically fallacious to conclude that time dilation effect is an active transformation with the behavior of this light clock that moves in uniform velocity has physically shown to be traveling a longer light path.

    For the light clock that is fiddled in this manner to illustrate time dilation effect, you are correct that physical change for this clock has occurred and it did tic-tock slower with lengthened light path as a result of its motion in uniform velocity.

    I will show you it is a cognitive paradox for this observed phenomenon. Now fiddle the clock so that the mirrors are arranged in a manner for the light beam to move in a parallel direction of the motion instead of the perpendicular setup used in the light clock example of Einstein. With this 90 degree change in angle for the path of the light bouncing between the mirrors, the “tick” of the light beam when moving in the direction of its motion would take a longer period in an extended light path, while the “tock” of the light beam when moving against the direction of the motion would take a correspondingly shorter period in a contracted light path, the full cycle of the light beam in tick-tock motion in this light clock setup would not physically travel a longer path while moving in uniform velocity; this clock would not be physically changed when it is at rest or is in motion in its inertial frame. The pulse-train ratio adjusted to be identical for the clock at a rest frame would be different when this clock is in motion, but the period for a tick-tock cycle of this light clock would remain constant when it is at rest or in motion in an inertial frame. Yet an inertial observer would still measure the clock in relative motion of uniform velocity to be time dilated; time dilation effect is a passive transformation of no physical significant.

    Although the shortcoming for this example is it would not be as comprehensive for illustrating time dilation effect as the light clock that is illustrated by Einstein, it qualitative illustrates that it is an erroneous assumption in mathematical relativism that Einstein light clock behaves like a standard clock.

    Therefore it is logically fallacious to conclude that an observer moving in uniform velocity is moving through time in a dilated fashion that suggests an active transformation of time.


    The fully symmetric nature of the effects in SR should be the first sign that it is just an approximation of reality, and that a richer description is needed to explain that time dilation is not symmetric between any observers who aren't in the very unrealistic situation of invariant relative motion within a flat spacetime metric.
    I have no issue with this, in realistic situation to reach a specific velocity from rest it would involve acceleration, and gravitational potential is different at different altitude that follows the principle of inverse-square law, and there is also the turn-around involved in a return trip travel and all these have to be accounted for in making an accurate measurement. Although SR is an approximation of reality without considering the gradient of gravitational field, it does not change the state of transformation; a passive transformation would not become an active transformation when the quantitative measurement is approximated.

    You keep stressing on this approximation issue, I wonder are you suggesting that approximation of reality with SR on time dilation effect would somehow alter the type of transformation involved, as if this approximation could change the conclusion for time dilation effect from active transformation to passive transformation and vice versa. Kindly elaborate on this.

    If we could reach an agreement by clearing this hurdle, we shall move on to gravitational time dilation of GR.

    Kind regards,

    ~ vincent
    Universal Vortical Singularity
    "It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Cited by Albert Einstein
    "The entire universe is apparently paradoxical." - UVS inspired
    "All physical existences are weaved in vortical motion; nothing physical in nature is not vortical." - UVS inspired
    "Through knowing the paradoxical effect of nature, it enlightens on how nature does wonders in a complexly inverse manner." - UVS inspired

  10. #20
    6th degree Black Belt Vincent Wee-Foo's Avatar
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    The SR example is for an idealised set of observers in uniform relative motion, an unreal assumption.
    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    Einstein himself said that it is merely an approximation in a hypothetical flat spacetime, after he formulated GR.
    Einstein thought experiment for time dilation effect on him receding from a clock at light speed is indeed based on unreal assumptions. In realistic situation, to reach light speed for a rest mass it have to involve acceleration, and by the time when Einstein is receding at light speed (if it is possible) even if he could do that in a few seconds time he would have travel away from the clock tower on Earth where he had originally stood and reached beyond the orbit of Moon, by then the flat spacetime of equal gravitational potential is no longer valid, the gradient for gravitational potential would be involved. Also, after the first pulse of light from the clock had touched his eye’s cortex when he achieved the speed of light, biologically he would see nothing thereafter; he could never see a clock that freezes in time dilation effect. Then there are also atmospheric layers involved with varying refractive index that would affect the accuracy of the result, friction would also involve in realistic situation. However, all these unreal assumptions in his thought experiment do not change the fundamental for time dilation effect qualitatively. Einstein's thought experiment is designed to comprehensively understand the fundamental of time dilation effect qualitatively.

    To pacify nitpickers, Einstein thought experiment could be adjusted to be more realistic but preserving the essence for the fundamental of his thought experiment that illustrates time dilation effect. Presume Einstein had accelerated to near light speed when he reaches the location of the clock and thereafter he maintain a uniform velocity for a hundred meter, and he maintains in equal gravitation potential for this distant. Einstein is encapsulated in an invisible shield while in motion and therefore friction has no effect on him, he could record a time dilated clock with a high-speed camera that has a build in clock of proper time and his thought experiment would be tenable, this could be express mathematically with Lorentz transformation. An observer standing at the clock would also record that a clock traveling with Einstein is symmetrically time dilated. This illustrates that time dilation effect is a passive transformation of no physical significant.

    The examples presented by mathematical relativists proved that time dilation effect is an active transformation of physical significant is merely an analytical truth in the rigors of quantitative evaluation. These examples are based on erroneous assumptions extrapolated from false facts that lead to all sorts of misconception in various types of delusion for Einstein’s theory of relativity. In mathematical relativism it is believed that the precision of a quantitative prediction would validate a theory and therefore mathematical physicists are obsessed with extreme quantitative accuracy; this is a belief. In my humble opinion, this belief is a myth that is based on false scientific fact of reified time.

    “As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain,
    and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.”
    - Albert Einstein

    The twin paradox example presented in mathematical relativism for time dilation effect is a logical paradox that could never have happened; it is an impossible problem but yet it could be mathematically deduced and concluded with proven mathematical principle using Lorentz factor and therefore claim validity on active transformation of time. Einstein had solved the twin paradox problem with a GR approach and had shown his solution with gravitational time dilation that does not have the logical paradox situation of an impossible problem. He specifically mentioned the clock is slowed when it is in proper acceleration, he did not say time is slowed. The effect of proper acceleration is equivalent in principle with gravitational acceleration that would cause a predictable active transformation in gravitational time dilation.

    It is the mathematical relativists that claim with analytical proof for time dilation effect through quantitative evaluation that time would pass slower when a clock is in motion, and mathematical relativism is currently the dominant of thought for theory of relativity in modern science. In my humble opinion, this is the mathematicians invaded theory of relativity that Einstein do not understand it himself anymore.

    “In questions of science, the authority of a thousand
    is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.”
    - Galileo Galilei


    ~ vincent
    Universal Vortical Singularity
    "It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Cited by Albert Einstein
    "The entire universe is apparently paradoxical." - UVS inspired
    "All physical existences are weaved in vortical motion; nothing physical in nature is not vortical." - UVS inspired
    "Through knowing the paradoxical effect of nature, it enlightens on how nature does wonders in a complexly inverse manner." - UVS inspired

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