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Thread: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Einstein said that motion through time is slowed as you increase motion through space.

    Einstein was a mathematical relativist, he may not have intuitively grasped the complexities of some aspects of it, but he used math to describe and proof his theories without exception.

    He simply believed the purely mathematical formulation of quantum theory was misguided, for it offers no real description or explanation of phenomenon. It is just a means to rather accurately calculate the outcome of experiments.
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    6th degree Black Belt Vincent Wee-Foo's Avatar
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    I think we are neck to neck on these issues. Elucidation would be necessary to conduct meaningful debate on these issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    Einstein said that motion through time is slowed as you increase motion through space.
    Can you provide a link to the source of the above statement that indicates Einstein said that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    Einstein was a mathematical relativist, he may not have intuitively grasped the complexities of some aspects of it, but he used math to describe and proof his theories without exception.
    "Time dilation is the phenomenon whereby an observer finds that another's clock, which is physically identical to their own, is ticking at a slower rate as measured by their own clock." - Excerpt from Wikipedia on Time dilation.

    Time dilation = slower clock This is the Einstein's version for theory of relativity

    This time dilation that is specific on slower ticking clock refers to time dilation effect in SR as well as gravitational time dilation in GR.

    Time dilation = slower time
    This is the mathematical relativism version for theory of relativity.

    Mathematical relativists are those whom had analytically concluded with quantitative predictions that time dilation is time passing at slower rate. These mathematical relativists propositioned concepts like time warp, time travel with reified time that is variant. Einstein did not make any of such claims.

    It is true Einstein used math to describe and conclude his theory, but prior to quantitative prediction and conducting experiments, he first use inference to illustrate his theory qualitatively. Einstein propositioned time dilation as the phenomenon of clock ticking slower, according to the definition above he therefore is not a mathematical relativist, unless you can conclusively show it as otherwise.

    'If, for instance, I say, "That train arrives here at 7 o'clock,'' I mean something like this: "The pointing of the small hand of my watch to 7 and the arrival of the train are simultaneous events.' - Ablert Einstein, excerpt from "Definition of Simultaneity" on "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies".

    Mathematical relativism disproves qualitative inference, and analytically concluded that precision quantitative evaluation is the only correct scientific method. Despite Einstein had illustrated qualitatively by inference that time dilation effect of SR is reciprocal, symmetrical time dilation occurs for both inertial observers in time dilation effect, but this was simply brushed aside. Instead mathematical relativists deduced mathematically with the quantitative evaluation of the light beam example and concluded that time pass at a slower rate for a person who is in uniform velocity motion. This is based on a wrong assumption in mistaking a fiddled clock as a standard clock, this is qualitatively proven to you in my previous post.

    Time dilation effect in an uniform movement is a symmetric situation and Einstein did not agree that there would be an active transformation at all and this is very clear. He even provide a GR solution to the twin paradox problem with non symmetric situation of curved spacetime to explain an active transformation for the twin who had made the space travel, and take note Einstein specifically mentioned it is the clock that is being slowed when it is in acceleration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    He simply believed the purely mathematical formulation of quantum theory was misguided, for it offers no real description or explanation of phenomenon. It is just a means to rather accurately calculate the outcome of experiments.
    I believed you are referring to EPR paradox. Although there are issues here, these are other issues that are not related to Einstein theory of relativity.

    When Einstein said “Since the mathematicians have invaded the theory of relativity, I do not understand it myself anymore.”, imho, he had specifically referred to these mathematical relativists whom had twisted his theory of relativity with reified time.


    ~ vincent
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Hi Vincent ... I like your explanation.

    Hi Max .... I think an easy way to visualise the point Vincent is trying to make is to visit this page. Note in particular the 'count' on Jaspar's verandah compared to the 'count' in Zoe's car

    CLICK

    then, to see the relationship between SR and GR, read here

    CLICK

    Hope this helps a bit ?

    cool bananas ... greg
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    When Einstein said “Since the mathematicians have invaded the theory of relativity, I do not understand it myself anymore.”, imho, he had specifically referred to these mathematical relativists whom had twisted his theory of relativity with reified time. Originally posted by Vincent

    "Time dilation is the phenomenon whereby an observer finds that another's clock, which is physically identical to their own, is ticking at a slower rate as measured by their own clock." - Excerpt from Wikipedia on Time dilation. Originally posted by Vincent
    I would suggest that our discussions on this topic are additionally confounded by individual perceptions being distorted by our own genetically inherited circadian rhythms, which we then futher convolute through intentional and unintentional manipulation of same.

    Though I cannot converse in this forum in the language of science and math, yet I follow the exchanges with much interest, for I lack not in perception of these things, though I am not much given to the discourse.

    "You will think me lamentably crude: my experience of life has been drawn from life itself." Zulekia Dobson
    So many paths to the same destination,
    would, but I could, experience them all...

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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by labelwench View Post
    I would suggest that our discussions on this topic are additionally confounded by individual perceptions being distorted by our own genetically inherited circadian rhythms, which we then futher convolute through intentional and unintentional manipulation of same.
    Hi labelwench,

    I agree.

    I call this the individual perception of the reality of what one has perceived. What one has observed as a truth in his reality is one issue, what is the truth is another issue.

    This applies to all, myself included.


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    ~ vincent
    Universal Vortical Singularity
    "It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Cited by Albert Einstein
    "The entire universe is apparently paradoxical." - UVS inspired
    "All physical existences are weaved in vortical motion; nothing physical in nature is not vortical." - UVS inspired
    "Through knowing the paradoxical effect of nature, it enlightens on how nature does wonders in a complexly inverse manner." - UVS inspired

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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    In his description of SR, he takes great care to specify that it is not merely an effect caused by some mechanical error in the clocks.

    Even before the, as you call them mathematical relativists, provided rigorous proofs, he himself was giving methods of proofing this effect.

    The 3+1 Dimensional matrix formulation of Spacetime is what he meant he didn't fully understand, but again he was not merely saying that it was an effect of clocks ticking slower.

    An example which anyone could understand, and which is the effect Einstein described is as follows: it takes roughly 3 minutes without air for you to pass out and die. If you flew past an observer while traveling at 99.9999~% the speed of light, they would observe you motioning frantically for help over a period of years, perhaps hundreds of years.

    You yourself still take 3 minutes in your frame of reference, and measure it as such.

    I haven't had a lot of time to post, so I haven't been able to fully explain this yet, but I'll come back to it when I'm able.
    Emily: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
    Stage Manager: No. *pauses* The physicists and mathematicians, maybe they do some.

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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    In his description of SR, he takes great care to specify that it is not merely an effect caused by some mechanical error in the clocks.
    There is no mechanical error for that light clock in the thought experiment under the stipulated circumstances of uniform velocity motion. It is a fiddled clock to comprehensively illustrate time dilation effect and it should be synchronized to proper time while in uniform velocity motion. However, if the circumstance is altered, such as it is no longer in uniform velocity motion, the clock would no longer be accurate for indicating proper time. If the motion is at lower velocity, the clock will tick faster, if the motion is in higher velocity, the clock will tick slower. The light clock is not a standard clock as it was assumed in mathematical relativism that propositioned reified time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    Even before the, as you call them mathematical relativists, provided rigorous proofs, he himself was giving methods of proofing this effect.
    Mathematical relativists are basically mathematicians who study Einstein’s theory of relativity, these are people who do research in mathematical constructs inspired by theoretical physics for quantitative analysis through deductive reasoning as its basis. Most problems and theorems come from within mathematics itself, they assume a phenomenon as it is and the conclusion is purely based on mathematical construct to explain and predict the physical phenomenon that could be workable in applied science. Science practices by mathematicians who omit qualitative analysis and engage analytical methods to investigate, evaluate, deduced and conclude any perceived natural phenomenon are very much relied on a supra sense of belief through moot reasoning with varying degree of uncertainties in referring to reality.

    To say that Einstein use rigorous mathematical proof therefore he is a mathematical relativists is simply a logical fallacy, it is as fallacious as the statement illustrated in the barber paradox.

    Mathematical relativists believe their version for theory of relativity in mathematical constructs that are based on variant time are representing Einstein theory of relativity, this is a false belief.


    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    The 3+1 Dimensional matrix formulation of Spacetime is what he meant he didn't fully understand, but again he was not merely saying that it was an effect of clocks ticking slower.
    I believe you are referring to Minkowski space that is based on variant time that was proved to work quantitatively for SR.

    Einstein had been very specific on stating time dilation is the phenomenon of slower ticking clock.

    See a link on “An interview with Einstein: time dilation” by Joan Doan.

    Joan Doan did not believe in time dilation of Einstein’s theory of relativity, he even wrote a book to challenge this. Although he assumed time dilation as the phenomenon of slower time like the mathematical relativists, unlike mathematical relativists he propositioned that time dilation effect is invalid and therefore is nonsense. Apparently he was confused with time dilation between time dilation effect that involves passive transformation and gravitational time dilation that involves active transformation, and therefore raised invalid questions based on his interpretation of time dilation that is logically fallacious. He could never get any valid answer at all with those invalid questions according to his erroneous analysis; all the questions were based of wrong assumptions of time dilation refers to reified time that is slowed, and time dilation is equivalent for time dilation effect in SR and gravitational time dilation in GR.

    In his interview with Einstein, he cornered Einstein in his questions that were confused between time dilation effect that involves passive transformation and gravitational time dilation that involves active transformation. Einstein had maintained that time dilation specifically refers to the phenomenon of slower ticking clock throughout the interview.

    Despite Einstein emphasized to him that time dilation in SR and GR are not equivalent, Joan Doan just simply could not grasp it. In his own frame of mind he concluded that theory of relativity is self-contradicting and therefore is invalid.

    This is a documentary proof that Einstein specifically said that time dilation in his theory of relativity is the phenomena of slower ticking clocks.

    When I ask you to show me on the statement on “Einstein said that motion through time is slowed as you increase motion through space.”, which was mentioned in you earlier post and you implied it means time dilation refers to slower time, I am asking for documentary proof or anything similar that could substantiate your claim, not your interpretation or your belief on what Einstein had said.

    I suspect Einstein had made this statement to merely describe the time delay scenario of time dilation effect in SR under the circumstance of uniform velocity motion, just like he did for his other examples, but this could not be conclusive unless the details relating to that statement are available; the type of motion is not specified in the statement and therefore the type of transformation it involves could not be determined.

    ~ vincent
    Universal Vortical Singularity
    "It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Cited by Albert Einstein
    "The entire universe is apparently paradoxical." - UVS inspired
    "All physical existences are weaved in vortical motion; nothing physical in nature is not vortical." - UVS inspired
    "Through knowing the paradoxical effect of nature, it enlightens on how nature does wonders in a complexly inverse manner." - UVS inspired

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    6th degree Black Belt Vincent Wee-Foo's Avatar
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Max™ View Post
    An example which anyone could understand, and which is the effect Einstein described is as follows: it takes roughly 3 minutes without air for you to pass out and die. If you flew past an observer while traveling at 99.9999~% the speed of light, they would observe you motioning frantically for help over a period of years, perhaps hundreds of years.

    You yourself still take 3 minutes in your frame of reference, and measure it as such.
    Are you saying that time dilation effect as observed in a time delay manner of the scenario would ascertain that it is time that was slowed in that process?

    I can qualitatively show you that the time dilated observation by an inertial observer for this example is merely an optical illusion of a historical event.

    Pressume the event had happened in a galactic era when spacecraft could travel faster then the speed of light. The drowning event of the person in his transparent spacecraft traveling at 99.9999~% the speed of light had activated an alarm to make a distress call, within minutes another spacecraft went off at superluminal speed and managed to rescue that person at the nick of time. It had happened that the incident was a hero saved a beauty and thereafter they fell for each other, and then got married shortly after. On their 50th golden marriage anniversary, through a powerful telescope on Earth that could dynamically track the drowning event that is still time dilated, they would be able to see the drowning event that had occurred fifty years ago.

    There is a peculiarity of a paradoxical effect here, the victim after fifty years later of the drowning event she had involved in, can be looking through the telescope as an inertial observer, she could see herself in a time dilated scenario motioning frantically for help. Nature can record a historical event by optical illusion of time dilation effect in our present physical reality. See a topic on "Paradoxical effect of UVS".

    What had happened in the three minutes is a physical event in this extended thought experiment, what an inertial observer could see for perhaps hundreds of years is an optical illusion of the historical event in a time-delayed slow motion effect.

    This extended thought experiment qualitatively illustrates that time dilation effect in SR is an optical illusion of relative motion in uniform velocity, it could be optically observed to undergo a passive transformation dynamically that has no physical significant.


    ~ vincent
    Universal Vortical Singularity
    "It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Cited by Albert Einstein
    "The entire universe is apparently paradoxical." - UVS inspired
    "All physical existences are weaved in vortical motion; nothing physical in nature is not vortical." - UVS inspired
    "Through knowing the paradoxical effect of nature, it enlightens on how nature does wonders in a complexly inverse manner." - UVS inspired

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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    First, that interview thing from John Doan is not an interview with Einstein, it says directly that it is with some "imaginary Einstein" he made up.

    http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

    This is a direct translation of Einstein's paper "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies", his words himself.

    Further, we imagine one of the clocks which are qualified to mark the time t when at rest relatively to the stationary system, and the time $\tau$ when at rest relatively to the moving system, to be located at the origin of the co-ordinates of k, and so adjusted that it marks the time $\tau$. What is the rate of this clock, when viewed from the stationary system?

    Between the quantities x, t, and $\tau$, which refer to the position of the clock, we have, evidently, x=vt and

    Therefore,


    whence it follows that the time marked by the clock (viewed in the stationary system) is slow by seconds per second, or--neglecting magnitudes of fourth and higher order--by .
    Note the statement: "the time marked by the clock is slow by"

    Compare that with: "It might appear possible to overcome all the difficulties attending the definition of ``time'' by substituting ``the position of the small hand of my watch'' for ``time.'' And in fact such a definition is satisfactory when we are concerned with defining a time exclusively for the place where the watch is located; but it is no longer satisfactory when we have to connect in time series of events occurring at different places, or--what comes to the same thing--to evaluate the times of events occurring at places remote from the watch.

    We might, of course, content ourselves with time values determined by an observer stationed together with the watch at the origin of the co-ordinates, and co-ordinating the corresponding positions of the hands with light signals, given out by every event to be timed, and reaching him through empty space. But this co-ordination has the disadvantage that it is not independent of the standpoint of the observer with the watch or clock, as we know from experience. We arrive at a much more practical determination along the following line of thought."

    He takes lengths to specify that he is not simply talking about some effect on the clocks themselves, that the clocks by any account remain unchanged during these experiments, but that they simply recorded less time.

    Equivalently, one could say that they did not travel as far through time as the resting clock did.

    Time dilation is not an effect where time is slowed, it is an effect where ones motion through time is reduced.

    If it a resting clock moves through 10 years from 1980 to 1990, while remaining at x, y, z = 0, and you plot a course which transports a clock from x, y, z = 0 to x, y, z = 1,000,000 and back to x, y, z, = 0 at a significant fraction of the speed of light, your clock will move through, perhaps 1 year upon arrival at x, y, z, = 0, t = 1990.

    You will have undergone 1 year worth of motion through time yourself, and thus your body would have aged and changed accordingly, while your fellow experimenter who stayed with the rest clock would have moved 10 years through time, and aged accordingly.

    Any adjustment of position in x, y, z will reduce the distance traversed along t.

    You are always moving through t at a rate decided by your mass and the local neighborhood, which in your case includes the Earth, as it induces noticeable curvature on spaceTIME at your location.

    This causes two effects, your position in x, y, z will always be as close to the center of the Earth as possible (barring the resistance of the ground), as your geodesic (or path of least resistance) is bent from the straight line found in flat spacetime, to one which is directed towards the Earth, and your motion through t relative to an observer outside of the Earths gravity well is reduced accordingly.
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    Re: Aether and Relativity by Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Wee Foo
    here is no mechanical error for that light clock in the thought experiment under the stipulated circumstances of uniform velocity motion. It is a fiddled clock to comprehensively illustrate time dilation effect and it should be synchronized to proper time while in uniform velocity motion. However, if the circumstance is altered, such as it is no longer in uniform velocity motion, the clock would no longer be accurate for indicating proper time. If the motion is at lower velocity, the clock will tick faster, if the motion is in higher velocity, the clock will tick slower. The light clock is not a standard clock as it was assumed in mathematical relativism that propositioned reified time.
    Further clarification, the light clock which was measuring rate t' while in motion would not measure rate t' when returned to a state of rest alongside the stationary clock.

    It was not stated that it was adjusted to read rate t' while in motion, it was stated that while in motion the difference between the stationary rate t and the moving rate t' can be taken only as a change in the clocks motion through time, due to the invariance of the speed of light.
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