[N0B0DY]

That's pretty much the crux of the matter, RP. Space, field, energy, matter, etc., consist of the same substance and there is no give for movement to occur. So to concur with observations, motion must be a localized abstraction because the universe can't literally move in any direction - the infinite number of sources prevent each source's motion.

Another way I try to explain my position is through north/south division. If the equator existed, it would have its own north and south. So the only way for there to be such a concept of north and south, as strange as it may seem, is for the absolute equatorial point to be non-existent.

Ultimately, I think the future focus will be on how the intangible collective subconscious mind can create and govern subatomic reality, in order for individual conscious minds to be able to differentiate, interpret and categorize abstract phenomena.

It's funny, at another forum someone commented that they refuse to accept that reality could be an illusion to such an extent, but there really wouldn't be a difference at all would there? Getting hit on an abstract head with an abstract hammer is still gonna hurt, if the mind is programmed to feel it.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Get real Nobody, changing scalar states move in, around and through themselves, all the time. Does not the weather do this? EM waves and matter? On and on and on...ad infinitum...

RP, don't let Nobody's extreme abstract skepticism become real, to you too>>> It ain't...

Lloyd

Originally Posted by N0B0DY

If everything is moving in all directions, including opposite directions, at the same time, wouldn't all motion be negated before anything could move? I don't see how the universe could even do the Heisenberg jiggle, let alone gain momentum.

Perhaps all the motion is due to racing minds.

[N0B0DY]

That would be the whole point, Lloyd, what is real and what is not real exactly. I would say that, no, the waves aren't moving anywhere because all points are literally nowhere.

[bottomlander]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY

......what is real and what is not real exactly.

......the waves aren't moving anywhere because all points are literally nowhere.

In my humble opinion, Nowhere is still somewhere in contrast to else where.
It is likely to be the regime of ground state rather than moved outwards to the outermost or entered another dimensional world which caused the disappearance.

So far as I perceived, zero-point-energy is not zero, only assumes vacuum to be under the ground state yet always undergo quantum fluctuations.

Best Regards. Bottomlander

[N0B0DY]

It seems apparent to me that there is a difference between somewhere and nowhere, the former implying some existing place and the latter implying no existing place, and that should apply to the dimensional ground state.

There is also an infinite difference between the inversely proportionate relationship of position and momentum, where increasingly accurate measurments of position or momentum decreases the other respectively, and that of absolute position or momentum. The absolute is opposite relativity, infinity, because it is the sum of infinity and beyond; infinity is progressive, and the absolute is non-progressive.

The former would relate to zpe, naturally, because it is based on the infinite gathering of short-lived energy exchanges of virtual particles. So I agree that it is not zero, but disagree that it has anything to do with the absolute state of the universe.

The closest or best analogy I could give to explain my argument would be that of envisioning doing a headstand in outerspace. Which way would you turn? So, similarly, the absolute universe can't move because it doesn't know which way to go. All ways are the same, and moving in all directions at the same time is the same as not moving at all at any time.

[bottomlander]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY

It seems apparent to me that there is a difference between somewhere and nowhere, the former implying some existing place and the latter implying no existing place, and that should apply to the dimensional ground state.

So, similarly, the absolute universe can't move because it doesn't know which way to go. All ways are the same, and moving in all directions at the same time is the same as not moving at all at any time.

Smaller parts of the absolute universe will move with reference to General Relativity. And I agree with you that the whole universe can't move because it doesn't know which way to go, especially when it is hard to say what is outside the whole universe.

Anyhow, even though the absolute/whole universe seemingly will not move in a specific direction as what you said, it might have other options, like:
continue the former direction (if any), spin or move along the usual spiral path, or expand.

Best Regards. Bottomlander

[N0B0DY]

When I started to read "smaller parts of the universe" I thought you might lead to something along the lines of more and more refined mediums to allow for movement.

With respect to anything being outside the universe, whether known or not, I would think that should be considered part of the universe (or omniverse, if that makes more sense).

With respect to the other options for movement, I think the only somewhat feasible option would be expansion. Yet, expansion implies an expansion into an existing place/space, but the generally-accepted notion for expansion is that space itself is expanding so it obviously runs into a problem in that regard. The expansion, or any other type of movement, would have to relate to the relativity you referred to. In the sense that one reference frame jumps to another relative to reference frames of lesser scales.

I'm still not sure how literal we could make it, though I'm open to suggestions. If it could be proven to me that matter is clearly distinct from space, as I think Dave has implied, I would concede to a literal movement and/or universe. Until then, I have to remain fairly confident that it can't be done.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY

That would be the whole point, Lloyd, what is real and what is not real exactly. I would say that, no, the waves aren't moving anywhere because all points are literally nowhere.

Your the one creating the abstract point, instead of using a real one... Try using a physical logic trickster, instead of a broken abstract trickster...

Originally Posted by Nobody

If it could be proven to me that matter is clearly distinct from space.

Matter is clearly both distinct from space,[when moving through it] and entirely a part of space,[when still within it] and also space itself,[when shrinking and expanding with it] so the proof you seek is a moot point. There's just simply nothing else to start thinking about a universe with, except matter-space first. It's just most have the linguistics confused, as matter and space being distinct entities___If so, what would space be made of to create such falsely implied separations/definitions? When you can see it as changed states of matter differentiations, the puzzle becomes no puzzle, at all___Space is just the thinnest changed state of matter, possible, or void, as the same. All our differences are nothing but linguistic differences, and what each mind can wrap its thinking around___It's all a simple physical linguistics' puzzle, and I first stated this some 25 years ago...

Lloyd

[N0B0DY]

"It's just most have the linguistics confused, as matter and space being distinct entities___If so, what would space be made of to create such falsely implied separations/definitions? When you can see it as changed states of matter differentiations, the puzzle becomes no puzzle, at all___Space is just the thinnest changed state of matter, possible, or void, as the same."

The proof I'm after may be moot, Lloyd, but it is required for me to conclude that motion is possible in the universe. The above assessment simply draws a ring around my moot point, generally saying the same thing I am - that there is no difference between matter and space, and therefore there is no movement possible.

[Infinite Consciousness]

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0B0DY
That would be the whole point, Lloyd, what is real and what is not real exactly. I would say that, no, the waves aren't moving anywhere because all points are literally nowhere.

The only movement is that of consciousness within matter i.e. particles and waves bringing the physical-material universe into existence on its way to becoming consciously "Aware" of Itself as the "participator" bringing the universe into being.